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Why go after hillside rocket launchers with F16s and Merkavas – whats wrong with sending in a special forces assassination squad??
I’ve already answered that.
Why blow up a UN run school the map co-ordinates for which are reputed to have been given to the Israeli military?
The IDF say two of the dead belonged to a Hamas rocket squad (they have released both names) that was firing from the school at the time. They claim the school had been booby trapped and the secondary explosions from these explosives caused the causalities,
I don’t know who is telling the truth but I’ll be waiting for an independent international investigation before wading in with a judgement.
If you want to believe that the Jews are deliberately targeting schools and hospitals, then leave it at that
What is for certain is that Hamas has been doing just that for two years
There is clearly nothing to be gained from Israel doing so and as Cav rightly points out, we do not know the full story. But we do know that it is a Hamas and hezbollah tactic to site military installations in such areas
Most neutral observers draw a natural conclusion – why put in place a media embargo if you have nothing to hide?
Gaza’s Hamas controlled Interior Ministry does not allow any journalist to work in Gaza without prior approval from them. All press photography must be approved by the same ministry.
Hamas has banned the Palestinian Al Ayyam newspaper from the strip and jailed employees from the same newspaper…..It doesn’t like the cartoons.
Israel operates a free media. 24 hour blanket TV coverage live from Gaza is available from Al Jeezera English.
The most biased anti Israeli TV station of them all broadcasts live 24-7 from the Gaza Strip. Israel could remove that at any time, it doesn’t.
Have to disagree with you there…Cav…
Jeremy Bowen would be disgusted at your description there given that he is surely aiming for that accolade to be given the BBC
I think for the reasons already given it is farily obvious why they have no problem with Al Jazeera – they are the voice of "Islam" in most people’s eyes so any claims by their journos are easily denied.
Not so easily denied by the 100 million mainly Arab Muslims they broadcast to from the Gaza Strip every day.
Thats the problem db, nobody has any alternatives to what Israel should be doing to defend itself yet the same people are right in there with condemnation all the same. Its all very easy to say what’s acceptable and whats not acceptable from an armchair thousands of miles away.
The Israeli’s on the other hand have a daily terror reality to deal with. Personally I think its regrettable but necessary and Hamas should NOT be let off the hook on the issue.
Well said Cav R; one of the best posts on this interesting thread.
By the way, I believe this is the Hamas charter:-
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."Don’t hear Julian Manyon or the other anti-Israeli media people telling us about this.
Hamas are not looking to put together tank battalions or an air force. They might be looking for longer-range rockets
LOL,. So thats alright then isnt it. Nothing to worry about.
Unbelievable….
Quite incredible given that given much of Hamas’s racist beliefs and enthusiasm for actual genocide, the next obvious step will be chemical and biological weapons warheads as soon as they can get hold of them
Clivex, stop being such a tit.
Last I heard, you were saying that Saddam Hussein was also set to lob biological and/or chemical weapons into Israel.
Does history teach you nothing?
If you seriously think that Hamas – under an almost total blockade even before the current Israeli incursion – was ever capable of acquiring such weapons, then you are an even bigger half-wit than I first suspected.
And, of course, your suggestion that they hope to acquire these weapons is total fantasy on your part – utterly without foundation, and complete empty rhetoric on your part. And no, I won’t accept the “they want to obliterate trhe Jews” line as justification for your supposition.
I suggest you look at a map.
Any WMD deployed against Israel, would effectively be deployed against the Palestinian population.
Instead of making stuff up, how about you stick to the known facts, which are as follows:
* There is fault on both sides
* The elected governments on both sides have no interest in acknowledging culpability
* It is in the political interest of both sides to perpetuate the status quo
* The status quo does not serve either populationThat’s it.
History shows us that histrionics are just that. I have no doubt that a lasting peace can be brokered in Israel/Palestine – there just isn’t the will amongst the leaders on either sideto make it happen.
The irony is that the one politician who seemed capable of mustering the balls to deliver it – Rabin – was murdered my an Israeli, rather than a Palestinian. It tells us all how ******-up the entire place is, and how we should exercise caution if we choose to choose sides.
If you seriously think that Hamas – under an almost total blockade even before the current Israeli incursion – was ever capable of acquiring such weapons, then you are an even bigger half-wit than I first suspected.
And stop talking about things you know nothing about
How do you know that they are unable top obtain such weapons? i suppose you are privy to information that no one else seems to have
Any WMD deployed against Israel, would effectively be deployed against the Palestinian population
really? the palestinian population lives hundreds of miles within israel does it? Suggest you look at the map
it is moronic and dangerous to dismiss their frequent calls for genocide as "rhetoric". You can be assured that if it was any other population anywhere coming out with that sort of stuff, the left would soon be on their high horse. But we musnt think anything negative about their muslim brothers must we
Any WMD deployed against Israel, would effectively be deployed against the Palestinian population.
and your point is?
Hamas could not give a toss about the Palistinian population. That is why they use women and children as human shields when they launch their missiles.
That is why they launch their missiles from schools and people’s homes
Instead of making stuff up, how about you stick to the known facts, which are as follows:
* There is fault on both sides
* The elected governments on both sides have no interest in acknowledging culpability
* It is in the political interest of both sides to perpetuate the status quo
* The status quo does not serve either populationThose are not "facts" they are supposition on your part
the facts are Hamas fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel in 2008
The irony is that the one politician who seemed capable of mustering the balls to deliver it – Rabin – was murdered my an Israeli, rather than a Palestinian.
I would suggest that was the only factual content in your posting Grassy
Is it any wonder that the Middle East situation appears largely unresolvable when, 5 minutes after we start debating, we’re all at loggerheads!
Clivex/Paul
You are both “apologists” for Israel.
I don’t mean that in an anit-Israeli sense, but you clearly believe that Israel is beyond reproach in it’s delaing with the Palestinians.
I don’t hold this against you – and why would I….you are both entitled to your opinions – but it is clear that neither of you have any interest in debating anything about this situation. You only want to perpetuate your established pro-Israeli positions.
Like I say, it’s your perogative, but you don’t actually contribute anything to an even-handed debate. Indeed, you appear to consider any argument contrary to the ones you choose to perpetuate as pro-Palestinian, rather than merely the objective musings of someone who calls it as he/she sees it, and would quite like it if the situation could somehow be resolved.
Clivex, point me in the direction of the evidence that suggests Hamas wants to obtain WMD.
After you have failed in that task, I would ask you to look again at a map of the Middle East and highlight the WMD delivery mechanism that could impact Israel, without having the same impact on the Palestinian population.
Paul
Those are the facts as I see them.
You choose to disagree with the supposition that “There is fault on both sides”. This merely re-affirms my theory that you have a sleighted view of matters, and figure that there can only be fault on one side.
You also question my suggestion that neither Hamas nor the Israeli government are prepared to admit any culpability on their parts – in which case I ask for your evidence which shows contrition on either side for acts perpetrated now, or in the past.
Based on the evidence at hand; posturing and nihilistic rocket launches by Hamas, countered by disporportionate response from Israeli forces – I’d suggest that neither side has any interest in anything other than the status quo. given you have challenged this assertion, I would be interested in hearing how you think these actions will change it.
Finally, and perhaps most damningly, you seem to suggest that the current situation serves both populations better than a cease-fire – no matter how tenuous. Again, I’d love to hear you back-up that position.
As for Hamas and their three thousand rockets in 2008, I’d love it of you could tell me the current tally of Israeli rockets sent into Gaza in the first 7 days of 2009. Also, if you want to cut to the chase, we can do a body count instead.
I grudgingly admire you both for your consistent defense of what I perceive to be somewhat indefensible positions. I’m only grateful that we can indluge in such a discourse, without worrying about Hamas launching rockets at us, or the IDF appropriating our respective houses.
You are both "apologists" for Israel.
If my defending Israel’s right to take whatever action is necessary to defend its people from terrorists whose avowed aim is to destroy Israel – then I am proud to say yes I am an "apologist" – although I, of course, would not express my support in those terms.
Like I say, it’s your perogative, but you don’t actually contribute anything to an even-handed debate. Indeed, you appear to consider any argument contrary to the ones you choose to perpetuate as pro-Palestinian, rather than merely the objective musings of someone who calls it as he/she sees it, and would quite like it if the situation could somehow be resolved.
I am not anti-Palestinian. I am anti-terrorist and anti-Hamas. The two are not the same. To suggest such is tantamount to saying any opponent of IRA terrorists is automatically anti-Irish.
You choose to disagree with the supposition that "There is fault on both sides".
Depends on the context in which the statement in made. In terms of the current operationI find very little to criticise in the approach Israel has taken.
That does not mean Israel has not made mistakes in the past. Ariel Sharon was a terrible leader and the worse thing that has hapened to Israel and some of his actions are deplorable.
You also question my suggestion that neither Hamas nor the Israeli government are prepared to admit any culpability on their parts – in which case I ask for your evidence which shows contrition on either side for acts perpetrated now, or in the past.
As far as I am aware terrorist organisations do not recognise the concept of culpability. Israel has taken action and apologised in the past where the military have made mistakes and killed innocent civilians.(If you want a random example then November 2006 Israel admitted a mistake when 18 civilians were killed by a rocket attack)
Based on the evidence at hand; posturing and nihilistic rocket launches by Hamas, countered by disporportionate response from Israeli forces
again that is a subjective view
Finally, and perhaps most damningly, you seem to suggest that the current situation serves both populations better than a cease-fire – no matter how tenuous. Again, I’d love to hear you back-up that position.
Where have I suggested that, indeed by you making the comment "It is in the political interest of both sides to perpetuate the status quo " that makes the suggestion.
However any cease fire must address the two main issues namely:
a) protection of Israel by preventing Hamas having access to rockets and the prevention of suicide bombers crossing the border between Gaza and Israel
and
b) allowing supplies to flow freely into Gaza to ensure a decent standard of living for the residents there.
As for Hamas and their three thousand rockets in 2008, I’d love it of you could tell me the current tally of Israeli rockets sent into Gaza in the first 7 days of 2009. Also, if you want to cut to the chase, we can do a body count instead.
I don’t have the figures to hand. However my response would be the number of rockets fired would be sufficient to take out the terroirists and destroy the sites from where the rockets are launched.
As for Hamas and their three thousand rockets in 2008, I’d love it of you could tell me the current tally of Israeli rockets sent into Gaza in the first 7 days of 2009. Also, if you want to cut to the chase, we can do a body count instead.
Paul…why did you give that retarded comment the time of day? In case there are any simpletons reading this that do not understand the current situation, no missiles would have been fired into Gaza if Hamas hadnt fired 3000 rockets. U N D E R S T A N D?
Clivex, point me in the direction of the evidence that suggests Hamas wants to obtain WMD.
After you have failed in that task, I would ask you to look again at a map of the Middle East and highlight the WMD delivery mechanism that could impact Israel, without having the same impact on the Palestinian population.
Oh they are going to publicise it all over the net arent they? There is undoubtably elements within Hamas that would use these weapons. And there is a risk that Iran or (less likely) Syria would provide them with the resources.
You dont understand even the basics of what these weapons mean. chemical and biological weapans can be used on a limited scale. As can Nuclear to some extent. they could easily be deployed without the palestinians being affected.
Naturally if they were, gaza would be carpet bombed to oblivion but would the islamists care about that?
Have you any understanding at all about their beliefs?
The risk of this happening is still small but has to be countered
According to the ‘Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ 1,571 ‘Rockets’ were fired by Hamas from the Gaza Strip (Jan 2008 – Dec 2008) most of which were ‘Homemade’.
If you’ve going to attempt to justify this excessive use of military force by Israel at less have the decency to get your facts straight.
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