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Pompete…………….already 1000% more effective than Tony Blair!
You have to admit that isn’t difficult
Clivex I have stated that I can understand how a people can be manipulated by politicians and their organisations to believe that another group of people are inferior to them, a threat to them, and ultimately deserving of oppression by those politicians and their armies, which can ultimately lead to the murder of innocent civilians.
Fair enough.
There is a world of difference between "understand how" and "understand why".
Grass, regarding Arafat’s belated acceptance of The Taba deal the following article appeared in The Guardian in 2002
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel
Israel has peace treaty’s and open borders with Arab Muslim Countries (Jordan and Egypt).
20% of Israeli citizens are Arab. They are entitled constitutionally to the same rights as Israeli Jews. 70% of Arab Israeli’s say they will not move back to a new Palestinian State if it ever comes into existence, they will remain in Israel.
Outside of the illegal land grabs on the West Bank any Arab land taken since 1948 was in self defence against Arab invasion.
Based on that its my opinion the majority of Israeli’s have no ideological problem with Arab Muslims and will be happy to live in peace alongside them. So yes I think Israel is prepared to negotiate, indeed the process had begun again at Annapolis but Hamas will have to be removed from the equation first.
I have 2 Palestinian friends here. Their feedback to me is that Palestinians are fed up with Hamas and they will struggle at the upcoming elections. You wont hear that opinion on the Gaza Strip, Palestinians who live there are not allowed to express it. At a recent debate here in Doha entitled ¨Palestinians are their own worst enemy¨ attended by a 95% Arab Muslim audience the motion was carried 70% to 30%.
AMEN to that Pompete.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7819492.stm
The atrocities mount.
You have disappointed me Firefox – it has taken you over two hours to flag this one up.
Using emotive words like "atrocities" only serves to inflame the situation Firefox.
Are you suggesting this was a deliberate act by Israel as opposed to a horrible accident?
Even the OCHA are not suggesting it was a deliberate act by Israel.
What has happened here is terrible and if it proves to be a deliberate act I would expect those responsible to be punished and, furthermore, if it was a deliberate act then nobody will be shouting and complaining about it more than me.
However I am not prepared to jump to any conclusions until all the facts are known, indeed it would be irresponsible to do so – if others wish to jump to conclusions without all the facts that is their prerogative.
All military actions, whether deemed as justified or not, will have potential situations like this. There are countless examples throughout history of these sorts of incidents and we in the UK, nor the US, are any less squeaky clean in this aspect.
Finally when Hamas were firing rockets into Israeli houses prior to the current action I don’t recall you posting anything complaining of yet another atrocity against Israel.
I don’t see you shouting atrocity and complaining each time a US or UK bomb killed innocent civilians in Iraq – or are you just selective in whom you apply the epithet.
From Grasshoppers favourite columnist
The problem some will have with this of course, is that every statement and fact is sourced.
Although it perhaps merely confirms what any sensible observer of Hamas knew already and admittedly a christian convert will possibly have his own agenda, it is right to argue that this context has not been adequately reported (and never will by jeremy Bowens team) in the western european media
Those who refuse to believe that Hamas are using the population of Gaza as human shields/bomb fodder should watch this video. In it Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, on Al Aqsa TV in February last year, declares that ‘death has become an industry’;
…the women exceed at this, and so too do the mujahideen and the children. That’s why they have formed human shields of the women the children the elderly and the mujahideen in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine.
What people in the west find almost impossible to believe is that Hamas exult in and glorify the death of Palestinians as the highest form of spiritual attainment. The more Palestinians die, the greater they believe their achievement to be. That is why this man gloats that ‘death has become an industry’. This fact was noted recently by the Christian convert son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef, who told Ha’aretz:
‘You Jews should be aware: You will never, but never have peace with Hamas. Islam, as the ideology that guides them, will not allow them to achieve a peace agreement with the Jews. They believe that tradition says that the Prophet Mohammed fought against the Jews and that therefore they must continue to fight them to the death.’ Is that the justification for the suicide attacks? lsquo;More than that. An entire society sanctifies death and the suicide terrorists. In Palestinian culture a suicide terrorist becomes a hero, a martyr. Sheikhs tell their students about the “heroism of the shaheeds.”’
Then there is Hafez Al-Barghouti, editor of the Palestinian Authority daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, who two days attacked the use of civilians as human shields by Hamas:
He also said that the release of videocassettes showing Hamas members digging secret tunnels beneath Gaza residents’ homes permits Israel to excuse their strikes on the homes, and called on Hamas members to keep their distance from populated places, and to protect the lives of the citizens instead of using them.
What is also being almost totally obscured by the western media jihad against Israel is the murderous onslaught by Hamas against the Palestinians themselves. Here is another video apparently showing Hamas mowing down and murdering a Palestinian wedding party for no other reason than there was music and dancing at the wedding. The narrator asks repeatedly why, if Hamas murder their own people, they are so angry when the Israelis kill them in self-defence. There is no indication of who the narrator is – he describes himself merely as an Arab, but he is clearly a supporter of Israel – so you will need to draw your own conclusions. Such Arabs certainly exist, but for obvious reasons need to keep the lowest of profiles. Also obscured by the media jihad is the fact that Hamas are not parochial Palestinian terrorists but Islamists bent on global domination. On this MEMRI video, they say in terms that the wish to annihilate not just Israel but Europe and America and conquer the entire world for Islam. Hamas say they want to destroy Israel and kill every Jew. Now look here at how Israel’s soldiers treat Hamas terrorists who they pulled out of one of the tunnels dug to wage the Islamists’ unholy war.Any links to websites with details of the slaughter of 700 Palestinians by fellow Palestinians since early 2006?
Of course your answer to that will be "nor does the Hamas game plan". To whcih I wil say does 15 Israeli deaths in the past 12 months due to rocket attacks (as opposed to the headline grabbing "3000 ROCKET ATTACKS" Clive uses), justify nearly 800 Palestinians, to which you will say Israel has a right to defend its people and we will go around and around in circles.
For one last time…
The reason that there are so few israeli deaths is because they have built and operated bomb shelters to prevent casualties. 10% of Israels population is now affected. it is obviously ridiculous and intolerable that they should be expcetd to live under such condistions indefinately
The reason why there are so many Gaza deaths is because Hamas do precisely the opposite (and confirmed by above post). They use civilians as a "shield" (or worse frankly)
The intention of Hamas is to kill israeli civlians by rockets. Pure and simple
The intention of the IDF is to kill the militants and destroy the rocket launchers. There is no benefit to them at all in killing innocents
These are very simple straightforward facts which have not been countered by either side
From Grasshoppers favourite columnist
The problem some will have with this of course, is that every statement and fact is sourced.
Except that the most explosive footage – namely the alleged "mowing down" of a Palestinian wedding party by Hamas "for no other reason that there was music and dancing" – is completely un-sourced, of course.
Ms Philips, as is her custom, is trying to paint Hamas as global jihadists in the Al Qaeda sense, bent on "global domination". This is simply made-up and passed-off as fact, by someone who brings journalism into disrepute every time she puts pen to paper. How you can suggest Jeremy Bowen is biased in one post, and then produce an article from Melanie Philips as documentary evidence in the next, is pretty laughable.
In more general terms, we are all familiar with the Hamas covenant, and I don’t think – in almost a dozen pages here – anyone has tried to condone their attacks on Israel – past, present or future.
The debate here has generally been about the proportionality of the response, and a wider discussion about how the conflict could be resolved – both in the immediate and long-term. Indeed, it has been acknowledged by everyone that Hamas are not credible negotiators on behalf of the Palestinian people, within any peace process.
I therefore fail to see what this article contributes to our debate, clivex, and shame on you for polluting one of the best Lounge threads in a long time, with the unadulterated gargabe that spews out of MP.
Ms Philips, as is her custom, is trying to paint Hamas as global jihadists in the Al Qaeda sense,
It is how they define themselves… Obviously from the last line of your post you have not bothered to read the article because that self same definition is sourced within her article. And shall we look at the deputy Hamas leaders speech again shall we?
Of course it contributes to the debate, when there are some that naively still believe that Hamas has no responsibility for the deaths of Palestinians
with the unadulterated gargabe that spews out of MP.
Pointless comment. Either dispute the sources (difficult) or argue ratuionally against her commentary
Pointless comment. Either dispute the sources (difficult) or argue ratuionally against her commentary
I suggest you try the same, next time you rail against Jeremy Bowen.
Big difference. Jeremy Bowen is supposedly (laughably) a neutral reporter/editor. This is the BBC’s duty and the terms of his employment
Like it or not, Melanie Phillips is not under the same constraints and whilst she is pretty diligent with the facts, she writes for papers and journals whos politics are well known
The difference is marginal.
Anyone claiming to be a journalist can be expected to deal in facts/truths, and any ‘opinion’ piece should be based on said facts/truths – not just hearsay or belief.
What more do you want? She has linked up to quotes and videos right throughout the piece
Jeremy Bowen, early on in the campaign stated that israels action was purely designed to strike fear throughout the region. Apart from the fact that that is a very subjective and prejudiced comment from someone who is supposedly "balanced"…. where were his sources?
The problem with the Isreali/Jew thing, is that being a Jew is just being part of a religious group, like a Mormon, a scientologist or a Catholic. A lot of Jews are mis-guided and believe they are a racial group (or a nation defined by their race) which they are not. There are many fanatical Jews like Ester Rantzen, who are blinded by their victim hood. They are plenty of videos of Jews plenting other Jews with bricks because they are driving cars on a Saturday. Such is the way with fanatics.
A lot of Jews are mis-guided and believe they are a racial group (or a nation defined by their race) which they are not.
Sorry Dave that is complete and absolute bo££ocks – if there is no such thing as a "racial" or ethnic Jew why does the genetically based disease ( a mutation of the JAK2 gene) polycythaemia have a greater preponderance in Jews (be they religious on non-religious)?
I quote from one of many reports on the subject:- "The disease appears to be most common among Jews of European extraction than among most non-Jewish populations."
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