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How ridiculous is it that in 2008 we don’t have a unified system of handicapping between two adjacent countries whose horse populations regularly take each other on? This creates needless duplication of work where the UK handicappers take it on themselves to assign new UK marks to all Irish horses entered over there, which bear no relationship to their Irish marks.
My reading of this is that the UK authorities are more or less saying the Irish Handicapper is incompetent, as if it were a simple matter of ratings slippage a uniform adjustment would suffice. Can anyone (MW) comment in a diplomatic fashion about what’s going on and how come the two systems can’t be married? Noel O’Brien keeps saying "Two different systems" but surely the object of both is the same so how can they be fundamentally different? I’d have to confess that I reckon the problem lies on our side, but can anyone explain why?I seem to ask this every year, but can anyone tell me if there’s an official policy regarding Irish hurdlers in Britain? I’m guessing the official handicapper just asesses them individually as they seem to have marks between 10 and 15 lbs higher this year. Does anyone have an opinion on how they are treated? FWIW I’ll be surprised if we don’t have a couple of HH winners this weekend.
CH,
I think it’s done something like this. The Irish horse is entered for Cheltenham, so the English handicapper (EH) phones the Irish handhcapper (IH).
EH – what’s your hurdle mark for horse X
IH – 102
EH – how about 128 for over here then
IH – 105 ?
EH – 124 ?
IH – 112?
EH – 118?
IH – 114?
EH – Done!
IH – You certainly have been.
AP
I don’t know the answer either, but in an interview on ATR about 6 weeks back, AJ Martin said it’s so unbalanced that some of his horses are rated much higher in England than in Ireland, whereas some are rated much lower.
I don’t know if ‘rated’ is the exact word he used, but anyway, to get to the crux of the matter, he said that whenever he sends one over for a handicap, it usually means he thinks it is very well treated over here and he can take advantage. Unfortunately, the prices usually reflect this, though you can’t argue with his record of late when sending them over.
The reason I’ve mentioned the above is because if Martin thinks this, then surely other Irish trainers can exploit this. So no doubt you are right, there will probably be some very well treated Irish runners over the next few days in our handicaps.
Mike
As we have an official BHA handicapper as a registered poster here these days, I’m sure he’s more qualified to answer this query than I, but I am pretty sure that the BHA handicappers compile their own ratings for Irish Jump Horses i.e. not only do they put figures on horses running at Ludlow, they will also assess the form from Clonmel themselves this afternoon rather than take Irish Turf Club marks.
The main reason for this is that the BHA and Irish Turf Club seem to have a totally different idea as to the relative abilities of a horse rated 115 say. That’s why horses like Tipperary All Star (just one example) look badly treated on their home form, but can still be veruy competitive in handicaps in Britain.
Why a one size fits all approach isn’t used, i.e. give all horses their Irish mark +10 in British handicaps isn’t adopted, I’m not really sure, other than I guess that the BHA obviously think they’ll do a better job if they do it themselves. When the Irish Turf Club let Tony Martin get his useful Flat horses in handicap hurdles off marks in the 90’s, you cannot really argue with them can you.
Davidjohnson is correct, the BHA jumps handicappers assess all races run in Ireland and take no notice of the Irish ratings.
The way the BHA and Irish handicappers go about assessing races is totally different and the two systems are incompatible.
Whatever method is being used, would anyone on here be surprised if Irish trained horses filled the first three places in the opener tomorrow.
How the Ascot Stakes runner up and dual hurdle winner Top The Charts is on 117 and gets 3lbs from the moderate Armenian Boy is a mystery to me.
AP
As you well know AP, the fact that he was second in the Ascot Stakes has no bearing on his hurdles mark…… He has been beaten off steadily rising marks in his last 5 handicap hurdles and he is 12lbs higher in this race than his last handicap at home….
(I think he’s a good thing too
)Davidjohnson is correct, the BHA jumps handicappers assess all races run in Ireland and take no notice of the Irish ratings.
Carvillshill – that is the current official policy.
Why a one size fits all approach isn’t used, i.e. give all horses their Irish mark +10 in British handicaps isn’t adopted,I’m not really sure,
That’s certainly what the Irish Turf Club and the Irish trainers would like us to do.
At present the Irish handicap suffers from slippage as ours used to. The Irish jump handicapper corrects the slippage by having a universal raise in the ratings once or twice a year. The problem with a one size fits all approach is that the effect of the standardised +10 would vary depending on which point in the ‘slippage cycle’ the Irish handicap was at.
Thanks for the reply. Sounds like it’s a difficult task and I’m sure political pressure builds up after a high-profile meeting like this if us Paddies win all the money!
Why does any professional handicapper suffer from significant slippage? It can be and surely should be avoided.
So is it fair to suggest then that the official BHA line is that they believe their Irish counterparts to be incompetent?
Don’t worry Marcus, no need to answer.!
FWIW I reckon the handicapper has done an absolutely farcical job on this race..
Looks to me that every Irish horse in the race, with the exception of Tony Martin’s, has been given an absolutely ludicrous handicap mark..
How has Golden Moon, a horse who has won one (dire) event from 17 handicaps been raised 13lbs from her Turf Club mark of 94 while Top The Charts has been dropped 2 pounds (119 to 117)?
I cannot understand for the life of me the decision of the handicapper to drop Top The Charts 2 pounds, in light of how he has treated the other Irish horses..
It’s a wonder so many Irish horses are over there at all IMO..
Disgraceful..
Hasn’t Top The Charts gone up 10 lbs since the win at Downroyal off 107?
Maybe we’re witnessing the Tony Martin effect, a lot of his HH wins in the UK have been with horses that easily defied a 9 or 10lb hike. Cant say I blame the UK handicapper although a 13 lb increase for an exposed 8yo that hasnt won above 87 (GM) does seem excessive.
Top of the charts would appear to be on a lenient mark even if you take a line through the UK trained ENGLISH CITY, i noticed the Irish h`capper is not so lenient with our runners , when FLEET STREET won a moderate h`cap by 2.5 legnths off a UK mark of 127 he had to race off 133 next time up in Ire, that would equate to an hike of about 16lbs!!
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