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Certain horses seem to thrive on human attention (Dessie for one) and is it impossible that they are aware of the connection between finishing ahead of the herd and the rewards?
Anyone who saw Desert Ortchid at any munber of his numerous post career appearances on course would have surely noticed his excitement (ahemmm he was gelded mind) at his reraquaintance with the racecourse
Of course horses don’t know they’ve won or that the winning post is a winning post, they are horses they don’t have human thoughts.
Like humans though they all have their own personalities and their own likes and dislikes, they have emotions thats why some will sulk, some will play up some behave as good as gold. When asked to respond to pressure some will, some will refuse thats because like humans all horses like and respond to different things.
A dog knows its liked so does a horse, when it gets attention and patted on the neck it knows it’s receiving warmth and loving.
To say that horses know when they’ve won a race is a ridiculous notion given that a horse doesn’t even know the meaning of the word race.
I don’t think that they know they’ve won exactly, but they must pick up that they’ve done something really good and made their humans very happy, thereby getting them lots of fussing, carrots and polos. Why shouldn’t they be intelligent enough to connect all that with the fact that they ran in front of all the others, and if they do it again they’ll get all the goodies again.
As for Dessie, that horse definitely knew what a star he was and how to play to his audience! What a diamond he was
Of course a horse doesn’t give a stuff where the finish line is, but they understand the urgency conveyed by their riders.
Also, although I can’t recall the names off the top of my head, there’s been a number of instances of horses being headed by another and reacting by going to bite the living hell out of the horse who has dared to invade their space or contest their superiority.
As already mentioned, there are aspects of herd mentality and human reward to consider. Some horses may not care about being beaten but it’s an interesting psychological aspect to discuss. Some horses – Silver Charm for example when racing Swain a few times – do not like to be beaten. SC is a good case in point that when the jockeys are going all out for a finish, it can make a significant difference. So whilst they may not know they’re racing a set distance etc, there’s obviously some argument for certain horses having a very strong herd domiance psychology that plays very well competitively for their connections.
I think there is always a boss horse, till, it, in turn gets displaced and replaced.
That’s why I said elsewhere that in the parade before the Gold Cup I could see that Denman was the boss of his next door neighbour, KS.
Kauto looked uncomfortable, and so did Ruby. They knew, perhaps!On the point of horse intelligence, I rate them as being at the same level as sheep, ie. pretty stupid, but always ready to do something "naughty", judged in human terms, if they feel they can get away with it.
Undoubtedly, my view of horses is not very sentimental. This doesn’t mean that I enjoy seeing them in distress.
In fact, on Saturday, I didn’t know what had happened to McKelvey, but I did see that weary horse by the water jump that was almost going to ground. This is the one that was spotted by a poster on btfr forum, where the jockey was desperately seeking assistance from a policeman and other bystanders, as he attempted to keep the thing up.
I was in Tatts, but even I could see the urgent need for buckets of water. These did arrive , eventually, though, as always with this kind of thing, it did seem ages before the help came.Perhaps dehydration is an important factor that needs to be addressed scientifically? Four and a half miles shouldn’t stress a horse unduly, imo, but, maybe they go so much faster now?
Certainly, all of the first ones home looked pounds lighter when they finished!
That’s why I said elsewhere that in the parade before the Gold Cup I could see that Denman was the boss of his next door neighbour, KS.
I think you’ve made a very good point there Sean. Its an angle that Raceform / Timeform and a million hours of expert analysis would never cover. I’ve done a bit of reading on the subject since the Gold Cup and my theory is that Kauto knows who’s the boss when Denman’s around. Apparently in their side by side stables their is a window / hatch where they can see each other all the time. I reckon in their own quiet horsey way communication takes place between them and each horse knows where he stands in the relationship.
Paul Nicholls mentioned Kauto was turning around in his box the day of the race something he’d never done before and Ruby has never offered the ground as an excuse, he’s just said Kauto didnt seem himself on the day.
I’d never bet against Denman in the unlikely event of the two of them meeting again until its been proved otherwise.
Harry Findlay is the only one I’ve heard mention of Denman mentally breaking other horses and factoring into his betting on the race. I’m not surprised he makes the game pay.
Bombastic, doubtless, but I’m certain horses get to know where the winning post is; it’s just not reflective in the way that human beings think.
It wouldn’t escape its attention that the jocket stops urging it forward when it reaches a strange-looking post in the ground, and when and if he gets to the winner’s enclosure (sorry, Quixall), he would, imo though, certainly pick up the vibes of elation or disappointment. Animals sense moods, don’t they?
There’s a cat called Oscar in a hospice in the US, who always turns up on the bed of a person about to die about 2 hours beforehand, turns round twice, settles down and starts purring. Sounds like he cold have picked up a pre-mortem certain smell though. Still animals sense the weirdest things, such as the imminent tsunami and earthquakes. Some people sense the latters’ approach, too.
Someone photo-shopped Oscar sitting on the desk of a beaming Alberto Gonzales, Bush’s former Attorney General, just before he was sacked. I mean before, not after the event, though it was fairly predictable.
Grimes how about those horses who pass the winning post more than once in a race? If they really knew what the winning post was they’d quicken themselves up upon sight of it would they not? Or are you trying to tell us horses can count the number of circuits as well?
Desmond Morris, zoologist, animal behaviour expert and some time racehorse owner wrote a book called "Illustrated Horsewatching".
In it he considered the question posed by this thread. His conclusion was that not only are racehorses oblivious to the fact that they have won but it is doubtful if they know they are in a race at all. "To them it is simply an exercise combined with something resembling a herd panic".Instead of praising horses for courage and knowing where the winning post is, we should be marvelling at their obedience and willingness to please their rider.
An old chap that I spoke to many years ago said that if you learn about horses from the day you’re born to the day you die, you’ll still never know everything about them, and he wasn’t just talking about how to feed them, bandage them, saddle them etc. They have friends, pecking orders, they don’t remember things but they never forget either. They’ll remember horses that they’ve shared fields with years after they’ve been separated. They’ll stand by the gate waiting to be fed before their owners arrive. They have a sense of hearing, smell and danger that we can’t even imagine. I also remember Clare Balding saying about Denman when another horse tried to get past him ‘he shouldn’t have tried to do that, it just makes him angry…’ Perhaps Kauto was listening to her….
I suppose we’ll never know whether horses recognise the winning post but i slightly doubt it.
Its fairly obvious though that some, when challenged and in full drive, don’t like to be headed or is it some sort of blink-and-you-lose game they decide to play whilst being beaten half to death?
A few years ago at the John Dunlop Open day he was asked this exact question.
His reply was of course no horse could ever know it has won a race.
He put the noise of the crowd a factor in making some horses race up to the winning line as with any loud noise most animals would run away but some he thinks fear of all the shouting and crowds waving and jumping around and cause some of them not to concentrate on running as fast as possible.
He thinks they know where the stable area on a racetrack is and he thought that some of them ‘know’ when loading up after racing what horsebox they travelled to the course in.
Of course they know the humans that tack them up and feed and water them. Just the same as most animals.
Competitiveness is innate in the successful racehorse imo. Obviously when a horse runs in a race for the first time, it has no understanding of where the winning post is, or indeed what the winning post is, but horses who race frequently (and successfully) at the same track must know, by conditioning, at what point the race finishes. The ones that don’t are probably best avoided for win purposes, but I wouldn’t put you off sticking them in your placepot.
Dick Francis used to ride a top class horse called Silver Fame who was a Cheltenham specialist and won many races there. Francis explained that Silver Fame knew the course so well that he would automatically pick up the bit and race in earnest at the same point turning for home, even before the jockey had a chance to ask for his effort. He recounted an occasion where the horse was once asked to race over 4 miles at the track for the only time, thus requiring the runners to pass the stands an extra time (the configuration of the track has changed slightly since then) and mentioned that Silver Fame picked up as usual at the same point as he would normally on the penultimate circuit and had to be restrained from going on. Initially the horse resented being restrained but as they went out for another circuit relaxed into his normal running style before picking up the bit and sprinting clear hard held at the business end. He knew!
I am certain that horses know when they are heading off to the stalls for a race. When the bridle and saddle are applied and the sound of the crowds and others horses he/she is unaware of – they will know.
Horses , like cattle and sheep, cats and dogs, can learn a routine. For instance, the horse pulling the milk float will know the route as well as the milkman and will stop or walk automatically by dint of rota.
Similarly, horses in the mines would run like mad things back to the stables when the ostler let them go at the end of the shift. But underlying all this is the drive to get back to the haybag or manger!Not far from Silverstone motor-racing track and not many miles away from Towcester racecourse, there was a sawmill that employed an elephant. His job was lifting the trees and lumps of timber about the place.
Apparently, the tea-hut was down the road a bit, and people say that, as soon as tea-break came, the elephant was off down the road before the men!Mind you, the stories the old people used to tell would have you believing that the horse they did in nineteen o dot used not only to stretch out his neck an extra foot at the line, but would then cock his head and wink at the judge!
Grimes how about those horses who pass the winning post more than once in a race? If they really knew what the winning post was they’d quicken themselves up upon sight of it would they not? Or are you trying to tell us horses can count the number of circuits as well?
Flash,
They also do quadratic equations in their spare time.
Also, my missus who was brought up in a rural area, says that there is a pecking order of intelligence in the animal world. Horses, in her humble? opinion are up there man…although she has got me behind a sheep. Now, being a good old Welsh boy, I ain`t complaining.
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