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Going off at another tangent would you agree, Mr. Fist that mares are more intelligent than stallions/geldings…..
"the second he heard me he looked seen a familiar face and ran straight over to me"
I was waiting for the follow-on to be "…the turned around and aimed both back hooves right at my wotsits"
Only kidding FOF!
I’d be on the side of the conditioning argument. A horse doesn’t know what a race is, but if they learn to make the connection between passing a certain point first and the positive reinforcement that comes with it, then they will most likely strive to head the pack at that point. Rory’s story seems to back up this camp’s sentiments, the horse makes an association between that stretch of land and having Dick Francis ask him to go on, he learns to make the connection and eventually does so himself. It’s a primitive thought process, but classical conditioning by reinforcement (positive or otherwise) works for any species to the same end.
A horse doesn’t know its won anymore than it knows the name of his trainer and jockey.
Yes horses have a certain amount of inteligence, but come on, let’s get a grip here.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I agree with that, Himself, but, on second thoughts, I feel it’s best for my betting that many punters believe in the " knows where the line is" stuff. It makes things easier for me, just in the same way Santa Claus helps toy manufacturers sell toys.
Racing runs on bullshit and mythology, so I don’t suppose we should remove the lubricating snake oil.
If folk want to believe something, then good luck to them, I say!Sean Rus,
The next thing you’ll be telling me is that those 2 horses in between Channel 4’s coverage are actually actors….get away with you!!!
Sean Rus,
The next thing you’ll be telling me is that those 2 horses in between Channel 4’s coverage are actually actors….get away with you!!!
What!!! they’re not actors???!
There is no proof that horses can reason, which is what would be required for them to link ‘pleasant fuss and attention’ with ‘running faster to a certain point’. There is no proof that horses would even be aware that the ‘fuss and attention’ is as a direct result of the ‘running faster’. Anyone involved in training riding horses knows that reward at the EXACT instant the horse offers the desired behaviour is crucial, which is why clicker training and similar methods are gaining in popularity, especially among those who have studied horse psychology to a certain extent.
Even if it is subsequently proven one day that horses CAN reason, can we really be so sure that the immediate aftermath of winning is pleasant for them? Think about it. They are flight animals, and how are they ‘rewarded’? By being led into an enclosed space surrounded by loud noise. How many times do you see a horse in the winners’ enclosure throwing its head up and down, laying its ears back, trying to spin away from the people crowding it. They are not the signs of a ‘happy’ (to use a human concept) horse.
And Fist…I can only assume you’ve never had cats, if you honestly believe they aren’t capable of learning their names!
It doesn’t take a donkey to make a monkey out of a human, perhaps?
Monday, April7, 250 Plumpton.
"2nd , dist, Sir Harry Ormesher 11-12 R Thornton A King 5 1/12 f
led, tried to duck out on stable bend at 3rd, kept narrow advantage, ridden and headed after 3 out, soon beaten opened 1/14 ".Actual results like this, may not prove a thing, of course.
I’ve always thought the notion that horses ‘know’ when they’ve won to be ludicruous.
A horse has no more knowledge that it’s past a certain point on the racecourse quicker than the other horses and that this accomplishemnt somehow means something than I have about particle physics.
We had this greyhound who knew where the finishing line was. He’ kid everyone he was dossing then in a few strides he was there, race won. Well I like to think he knew where it was anyway.
Yes, Flash, I am saying that. It’s an established fact that horses can count, though their maths skills would be at about my shocking level. The simplest quadratic equations were the pinnacle of my mathematical prowess. And that learnt with great difficulty.
But those nags would get to know how many circuits on a course their usual distances involve, and are mostly probably amenable to the jockey’s promptings until they learn.
But in any case, they would not only feel their jockey’s urgings, heels, whip, etc, but also the vibes he gives off. Not to speak of the crowd’s roar being the ultimate tip-off.
Our cat knows our habitual movements from room to room, and he’s such a "me, me, me" egotist, he plonks himself right in the middle of the path he knows you’ll be taking next, so you have to go round him.
Worse, he thinks I’m very dozy, so doesn’t follow me out of the kitchen if my cuppa’s not made yet, or EVEN IF I THINK IT IS, AND I HAVEN’T PUT THE MILK IN, or zummit like that. He’ll just stay there, lounging on the floor at full stretch, ’till I turn round, looking up at me, as much as to say, "Are you understudying Michael Crawford for Some Mothers do Have ’em, you dozy wee numpty?" Then, when I’ve properly completed my own routine, he’ll immediately up and follow me oot.
Whoever mentioned how rapidly animals learn the routines the’re put through only said the half of it. I liked the post of the person who said you’ll never fully understand them.I can’t check the posters’ names or I’ll lose the whole text, and its very labour-intensive copying again and again. So, apologies to my anomymous referees.
What they can’t do – and I think it’s an established view of the animal kingdom – is to think reflectively, to meditate on what happened in the past or on what will happen in the future. Their anticipation of the next stage of their routine is a more immediate kind of intuition, they can’t distance them from and consider.
It’s interesting to learn that chimpanzees use tools to get their food and lions bushwack prey, but it’ all done on a kind of hunch, however habitual. It worked in the past, or for Mum or Dad. But no post-mortems, recitals of folklore or fishermen’s tales. That’s my two penn’orth, anyway.
There is no proof that horses can reason, which is what would be required for them to link ‘pleasant fuss and attention’ with ‘running faster to a certain point’. There is no proof that horses would even be aware that the ‘fuss and attention’ is as a direct result of the ‘running faster’. Anyone involved in training riding horses knows that reward at the EXACT instant the horse offers the desired behaviour is crucial, which is why clicker training and similar methods are gaining in popularity, especially among those who have studied horse psychology to a certain extent.
Even if it is subsequently proven one day that horses CAN reason, can we really be so sure that the immediate aftermath of winning is pleasant for them? Think about it. They are flight animals, and how are they ‘rewarded’? By being led into an enclosed space surrounded by loud noise. How many times do you see a horse in the winners’ enclosure throwing its head up and down, laying its ears back, trying to spin away from the people crowding it. They are not the signs of a ‘happy’ (to use a human concept) horse.
And Fist…I can only assume you’ve never had cats, if you honestly believe they aren’t capable of learning their names!
I can’t honestly say much about cats other than in comparison to dogs they are more independent and somewhat ignorant to the fact you even exist. I wouldn’t agree nor disagree with you about cats being able to learn there names but getting a cat to obey you is a friggin nightmare…they are hunters and if they were big enough they would eat you instead of licking you.
I don’t know to what extent a horse can reason but they are certainly very clever…your theory on horses in the winning encloure is poppycock though some horses are more timid than others when around a lot of people but those like Rummy, Dessie Kauto etc are we used to it and hardly bat an eye lid…..I remember reading a story of a horse in Australia if memory serves me well every time he got within earshot of the stands and the crowd he simply slowed down………The trainer cured him by taking him to a railway line nearby to get used to the noise and the horse came out and won shortly afterwards.
To state there is no proof to link such and such but then again there is no proof there is not.
People who around the same couple of horses everyday get to know them very well and can see changes in their moods etc. I have often heard jockey’s and trainers stating the horse knows he’s won alright..or he isn’t quite himself etc….you can take one look at a horse you know well and if he’s sick or down in the dumps you can tell immediatley…so many statements are made every day about horses their mood swings, what they know and they don’t know……I’ve been around them long enough to know that they know when they do wrong in the same way a dog does and they know when they have done good………they for sure know what affection is and they know what a smack on the nose is…..I would think it’s only common sense to think that when lots of people are affectionate towards them they realize they have done something right……….they have memories and if they run and win often enough and people are cheering and clapping them they would get used to that……….but if one day no one pays any attention to them…..then even the dumbest horse is going to notice "something is different here" and ask himself why no people?……..
A horse can of course reason….to what degree is another question…who knows maybe some horses have worked out why they are at the races and maybe some haven’t……like all creatures no two are the same.
Not sure if the following experience has anything to do with horses knowing whether they have won or not, but it taught me something about horses.
When I was working for Sara Kelleway, at Newmarket, one of the jobs was to get the pregnant mares in from the fields and into their boxes for the night.
The first couple of evenings the mare I was leading in was no problem, then she started to refuse to let me put a rope on her!!! (We had to cross three field and go through four gates). I gave up trying to put a rope on her and just walked down to the first gate, she followed and allowed me to put a rope on her when we got to the first gate. That went on for a couple of days and then she wouldn’t allow me to put the rope on her at the first gate…………the penny dropped. I just opened the gate and she followed me through, she did the same at the next gate and, as the last gate had been already been opened, she walked up to her box, and if that door had been open I feel sure she would have walked in.
In a couple of days she had managed to train me into how to walk a mare from the field into her box.
I felt quite ‘umble!!!
Colin
I’ve said this before on different threads but I’m convinced that Katchit knew he’d been beaten at Newcastle this year and was very disappointed by it…
According to Choc, he will ‘have a go’ at horses trying to pass (like when Sizing Europe leaned on him at Cheltenham he literally tried to barge him back)…
we think he loves to ‘win’ and we’re sure he doesn’t like being headed once he hits the front
we have another horse Zilcash who had a season of 2nds through 2006/07 before Alan King put him into a couple of easy races to build his confidence and you could see the effect of winning in the horses behaviour (although as far as winning goes he obviously liked it but think he kind of said… OK been there done that don’t need to bother with that again!)
In a couple of days she had managed to train me into how to walk a mare from the field into her box.Colin
… what a lovely story!
Horses are horses, humans are humans. Right from the start of this thread there has been a bias towards shaping a horse into human thinking/conditioning. Clearly, if you ‘compare’ horse intelligence to human intelligence, using a human scale of comparison, the horse loses. But anyone who takes the trouble to closely observe/understand the animal kingdom from their (the animals) viewpoint will quickly be rewarded with some special quality of mutual understanding – I like to think it is (mutual!) intelligence.
Another tale from the animal kingdom.
Many years ago we had a Jersey house cow. If she wasn’t ready to be milked she’d hide and circle round a horsebox, listening and turning in the opposite direction when necessary. Her antics caused one of the visiting children to exclaim
"Cor blimey, that cow can think!"
We also had outdoor pigs in a large wooded area. Don’t let anyone tell you that two boars will always fight each other. Ours used to take turns to cavort with the sows. They also ‘babysat’ the piglets whilst mum had a break.
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