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Having previously been ‘warned-off’ and had a thread removed for suggesting that Harry’s day in the sun might be approaching a solar eclipse, prudence suggests that I shall confine my remarks to generalisations.
Is it the nature of the beast that if you make (and oft lose) your fortune through bold and brash betting, that inevitably this courts publicity and it becomes impossible to stay out of the public glare? Or are there, or has there been, successful high-rollers in betting circles who have made and retained their wealth but never sought public adulation and chosen to remain fairly anonymous?
It just seems to me, that over many years, I have witnessed so many likeable characters, proclaimed as the new messiahs of ‘beating the bookies’ but, for whatever reason, the bigger the profile the quicker and more dramatically, it seems, they fade into obscurity.Well said Ken, and almost a microcosm of this very forum.
Thanks Reet.
Reading the Times interview, I’m inclined to suggest to Mr. Findlay that he should, if finances permit, get out now whilst the going is good. I say that out of long experience of knowing that, as soon as you begin to suspect that the vultures are gathering, psychologically (possibly deep down in your sub-conscious where those insecure demons reside) your decision-making and judgement becomes impaired and instead of just battling the bookies you find yourself also confronting the ‘fear of failure’ factor, the loss of self-esteem, the return to nothingness. Emotions, feelings and intuition are probably natural and expected a lot of the time with the betting choices made by most gamblers, but the minute a professional gambler is influenced by those factors then, I tend to think, he/she becomes less rational and ill at ease in their betting behaviour.Having previously been ‘warned-off’ and had a thread removed for suggesting that Harry’s day in the sun might be approaching a solar eclipse, prudence suggests that I shall confine my remarks to generalisations.
Is it the nature of the beast that if you make (and oft lose) your fortune through bold and brash betting, that inevitably this courts publicity and it becomes impossible to stay out of the public glare? Or are there, or has there been, successful high-rollers in betting circles who have made and retained their wealth but never sought public adulation and chosen to remain fairly anonymous?
It just seems to me, that over many years, I have witnessed so many likeable characters, proclaimed as the new messiahs of ‘beating the bookies’ but, for whatever reason, the bigger the profile the quicker and more dramatically, it seems, they fade into obscurity.Not really familiar with his history but would JP McManus qualify? A legendary character probably not known on this forum but very much known to anyone with a deeper knowledge of American sports betting is Billy Walters. Having in total lost and won sums comparable to the GDP of some 3rd world nations he is in American gambling circles, players and layers alike, the one name that creates the sort of universal respect/admiration/fear usually reserved for deities. He is surely the rarest of exceptions and I do agree with the general tenet of your argument. While likeable in a Bozo the clown sort of way (Bozo was considered a very shrewd businessman), I think with the way Findlay goes about betting, mainly massive liabilities on very short prices, he is inducing his own black swan moment, somewhere down the road. For his sake I hope I’m wrong.
From what I have seen of him on tv, I like Harry Findlay. An ebullient character, at times boorish, but one who speaks his mind and gives his opinions in a non -mealy mouthed way. That I like.
Remember flash Terry Ramsden, owner of Katies and a few others. He was once the darling of Ch4 racing during the 80s. Motormouth Terry was as flamboyant as he was crass – always ready to brag about his huge bets to Big Mac et al. He once bet one million pounds on a horse.
Terry Ramsden extravagance caught up with him and he was declared bankrupt in 1987 – owing a cool £142m.
He did make a "comeback" a few years ago – but failed to re-capture those heady days of the greedy, Margaret Thatcher inspired eighties.
A warning for Harry perhaps ?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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re:TerryR, I believe it was just 200K he owed to ladbrokes and was warned off over that. The rest of the money owed was due to his business going bust not racing related. I am open to correction…
Re: the rest of the thread. I posted before – publicity kills the punter.
The most telling remark in the interview was that he said he was aware of what people were saying of the forums (presumably bf forum). Found that interesting for a few reasons.
Anyways ,both as an owner and punter , he a character, he is larger than life and some people can identify with him (as opposed to other large owners…). He is open to talking to the press and extremely passionate about his horses and greyhounds. He also plows huge money back into the game(s) and as opposed to ,shall I say, some owners he doesnt think that racing is there just for his benifit (like it or not.). I believe there is plenty of room in the game for HF.
Just a simple example.
The majority of people who go racing/have an interest at home on the television have a punt. they like to hear of a whale have a tilt and coming up good. they expecially like it if its somebody they can recognise not just "some large,nameless,punter had a big go today" type report from a bookies PR person. Harry fits the bill today , in the past it was probably Curley. Ok different in a lot of ways but both men get the ordinary punters excited when they "go for one".I hope HF survives. There is enough room for him.
He also loves his racing with a passion and is like a big kid about it..good luck to him…
re:TerryR, I believe it was just 200K he owed to ladbrokes and was warned off over that. The rest of the money owed was due to his business going bust not racing related. I am open to correction…
I was told by a director of the company that Ramsden owed Ladbrokes at least two million, although to what extent he was given credit is open to debate. I think the company would be in trouble if it was revealed that they allowed so much rope to a problem gambler, which he undoubtedly was. He also defrauded his own company to fund his racing interests, so it’s hard to separate the two in terms of overall debt.
There are plenty of top level punters that have survived for years at the very top level although it is true that generally they shun publicity but Patrick Veitch, Chris Broom and Tony Bloom are three I can think of off the top of my head. Billy Walters in the states is a very good example although he is largely as good as the people that work for him and his genius is in the logistical side. Billy Baxter is another american who has past the test of time as have the HK syndicates that are all run by americans and Zelkjo Porobovic (spelling?) in Oz.
No idea if he’s still at it, or if he ever counted as a ‘high-roller’ but Jack Ramsden always struck me a a publicity-shy successful punter who gave little away in his few dealings with the media.
What about this Pat Naylor cove who’s exploits on Betfair are spoken of in hallowed tones? Know nothing about him myself.
Remember flash Terry Ramsden, owner of Katies and a few others.
…and last seen, I seem to recall, lumping on Royal Atalza in the 2004 Grand National in an attempt to win a stack of money for Liverpool’s childrens’ hospitals;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/apr/03/horseracing.comment3
(That’ll be the same Royal Atalza, by the way, whom I saw dot up in the East Essex Hunt Members race at Marks Tey today, nearly five whole years on…)
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
What about this Pat Naylor cove who’s exploits on Betfair are spoken of in hallowed tones? Know nothing about him myself.
Have met. Only the once, mind, and talk was of form matters and the virtues of thick winter ale rather than betting adventures. Very enjoyable company.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
I loved this comment "“There’s been no class in the Champion for years and Binocular stinks of it,” he declared.
Class act Harry and knows his stuff most of the time.
Like all owners he gets emotionally involved and was talking through a hole in his head the other night saying we will never see the same Denman again. Plenty left in the Tank given time Harry, cool your knickers
This might sound stupid – while I agree about Binocular – he has oodles of class – I’m not sure he’ll win, but he’s still the best Hurdler around as far as I’m concerned. And I do agree about the lack of class in recent Champions – yes, very gutsy horses, but nothing that makes you say "WOW".
I last spotted Ramsden at Sandown
some time ago – must have been
I remember he was walking really fast
past the tote terminal in the concrete bit
longiish hair trailing in his wake
and a blue and white spotted tie on a black shirt
background at his forefront.
I am always suspicious of people
that move that quickly.As for Findlay
one must admire his belief system.
He hints at the recent accuracy of the exchange
and I wonder if he is not a victim of his own success.
Small wannabee findlays stealing
his odds on advantages
backing away with a smoothing iron action
in a small seagull set up
with two screens.Is this gambling? Ok so I backed Bond Fastrac, call it pocket talk if you really feel the need.
Findlays horse, hands and heels first time out, persisted with over a patently too short 5f second time up and never spotted 2 Mondays ago on its final run before handicap mark assessment. Beaten a combined 19 lengths over sprint distances on its first 3 runs.
Meanwhile the owners of Bond Fastrac campaign their horse honestly and he wins his maiden impressively (imo) at Ripon on his second run.
Result – The honest connections have to concede 18lbs to the "improver" who hasn’t tried a yard until today imo and get done on the line. They must be gutted, I wouldn’t blame them.
Pull the other one Harry…Gambler my ar*e.
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Yurituni was about the only horse being backed in the race this morning, but even having spotted that I couldn’t make any sort of case for him. The distances he was beaten in his first three runs aside, any horse recorded as having been outpaced over six furlongs shouldn’t be winning over sprint trips on fast ground at York.
Hopefully questions will be asked, but given that raceourse stewards deem ‘the trainer had no explanation as to the apparent improvement in form’ to be an acceptable excuse then nothing’s going to change.
What did ‘Racing For Change’ advise in this respect, Silvoir?
Was there any skulduggery involved with this?
I don’t know.
I am fairly sure the stewards have a Timeform Perspective in front of them. If so, they should look at what the Halifax tribe say about Yurituni’s three previous starts; and at least hold an inquirey in to the improvement shown today.
Had no bet in the race.
Value Is EverythingResult – The honest connections have to concede 18lbs to the "improver" who hasn’t tried a yard until today imo and get done on the line. They must be gutted, I wouldn’t blame them.
Pull the other one Harry…Gambler my ar*e.
Well said.
‘Pocket talk’ is often very acute, I find. Even if it’s just no more than calling the jockey or the horse a four letter word. It’s therapeutic. After all, the people doing their b*****s in betting shops are the ones who keep the game going for all the bookies, gamblers and city-boy owners.
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