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I believe that good animals would be kept in training longer if more group races were open to geldings.A good gelding would make more in a year than a good horse at stud.Notice I said "a good horse" not a "very good one".
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I believe that good animals would be kept in training longer if more group races were open to geldings.
Your wish is already granted. Apart from the three c&f autumn 2yo Group 1’s and the 3 c&f Classics at 3yo, how many British races (excepting of course those for fillies and mares only) are
not
open to geldings? I think the
Answer=zero.
That would make a grand total of
six
races geldings are not allowed into, so if I’m correct I am not sure what your contention is?
They are allowed in the Dante (3yo) and other classic trials, the Mill Reef (2yo) and other sub-Gp 1 races, the Lockinge and all 4yo and up Gp 1’s — and even (at two years and up) the Nunthorpe.
I don’t see what the sport of Horse Racing gains through preventing geldings running in the major Group 1 races at 2 and 3. Are big breeding operations really going to change their objectives if geldings were allowed in the races they‘re not currently?
As for the good of the breed, is that a philosophy that still applies when the Derby winners who are stallions are shuttling to the Southern Hemisphere?
I really didn’t have a contention. I suppose only gelding owners who also own the sire or dam would be interested in keeping geldings racing on the flat.To prove the value of the sire or the dam.With the opportunities in Europe for a nh career the issue is not a major one.
I believe that good animals would be kept in training longer if more group races were open to geldings.
Your wish is already granted. Apart from the three c&f autumn 2yo Group 1’s and the 3 c&f Classics at 3yo, how many British races (excepting of course those for fillies and mares only) are
not
open to geldings? I think the
Answer=zero.
That would make a grand total of
six
races geldings are not allowed into, so if I’m correct I am not sure what your contention is?
They are allowed in the Dante (3yo) and other classic trials, the Mill Reef (2yo) and other sub-Gp 1 races, the Lockinge and all 4yo and up Gp 1’s — and even (at two years and up) the Nunthorpe.
One other race is restricted to colts – the St James’s Palace (Gr.1) at Royal Ascot is for 3yo colts only.
Because
The Derby
has always been viewed as the supreme test for three year olds with a view to establishing their credentials for stallion careers.
The British Pattern is based around the good of the Breed, which is why geldings are not allowed in any of the Classics.
It has never seemed logical to bar geldings from big races.
How does having geldings in the race stop it being the supreme test of stallion prospects? It can hardly be a supreme test if certain horses are not allowed to run. A gelding might finish eighth, fifth, third or even first, but the “best” stallion prospect will beat all the other stallion prospects. Is it just because the geldings do not have to carry a couple of small extra weights? Why is it not “good for the breed” for stallion prospect to be tested against geldings as well as entire horses?
.
Because geldings would enjoy a possible adavantage in the Derby. The Epsom classic looks to test speed, stamina and temperament.
The natural state for a 3yo colt is to be interested in fillies and mares and must overcome these and other distractions to win the race.
Gelding a horse is often done to pacify and control temperament therefore a gelded 3yo in the Derby has less to overcome…therefore theremay
be a potential advantage.
People often bet against geldings in the Kentucky Derby because in the 136 runnings only 9 geldings have won out of over a hundred that have tried.
Vagrant (1876)
Apollo (1882)
Macbeth II (1888)
Old Rosebud (1914)
Exterminator (1918)
Paul Jones (1920)
Clyde Van Dusen (1929)
Funny Cide (2003)
Mine That Bird (2009)7 geldings have won the Preakness, and just one (Creme Fraiche in 1985) has won the Belmont.
Funny Cide made me a racing fan. A Derby winner that kept racing (and winning!) at 4, 5, 6, and 7 did so much for the sport.
Because
The Derby
has always been viewed as the supreme test for three year olds with a view to establishing their credentials for stallion careers.
The British Pattern is based around the good of the Breed, which is why geldings are not allowed in any of the Classics.
It has never seemed logical to bar geldings from big races.
How does having geldings in the race stop it being the supreme test of stallion prospects? It can hardly be a supreme test if certain horses are not allowed to run. A gelding might finish eighth, fifth, third or even first, but the “best” stallion prospect will beat all the other stallion prospects. Is it just because the geldings do not have to carry a couple of small extra weights? Why is it not “good for the breed” for stallion prospect to be tested against geldings as well as entire horses?
.Because geldings would enjoy a possible adavantage in the Derby. The Epsom classic looks to test speed, stamina and temperament.
The natural state for a 3yo colt is to be interested in fillies and mares and must overcome these and other distractions to win the race.
Gelding a horse is often done to pacify and control temperament therefore a gelded 3yo in the Derby has less to overcome…therefore theremay
be a potential advantage.
Thank you for your reply.
If geldings may have an advantage in the classic races and a few other 2yo and 3yo events, may they also not enjoy that advantage in all the other Group 1 races already open to them? Surely the King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes, the Eclipse, the International Stakes, etc. are also tests relevant to stallion prospects, and are statisically more likely to have distracting fillies and mares in the field than are the colts classics. There still seems to be a logical inconsistency. In recent history, when geldings were once again allowed into some Group 1 races but not others, was any explanation given about the divide?
If the BHA thinks that the 2000 Guineas, Derby and St Leger colts might be distracted by fillies but geldings will not, maybe they ought to ban the fillies. Fillies hardly ever run in the first two colts classics anyway, and if the Park Hill Stakes was returned to its past status they would have no need to run in the St Leger either. Or perhaps we should find out if there truly is an advantage to geldings in such races. Geldings may indeed have less competetive spirit, motivation or determination because they have lower levels of male hormones.
Drone,
I bet Rite Of Passge wishes it was, but sadly he has no stud career to look forward to in retirement.
Ditto the third Purple Moon and the unplaced Kasbah Bliss and Tastahil.
AP
As to this one, most of the horses who run in the Derby will end up as geldings in the short to medium term anyway, so we are going to get those reliable links in the fullness of time.
I have looked at some of the Derby fields & a small proportion seem to be gelded. A lot of runners end their days at Stud in Commonwealth countries.
Are there any statistics on how many Derby Runners have been gelded. or indeed what became of them?I mean gelded after they ran at Epsom or later in their career.Do not want people to think I am dozy enough to think they do take part in the race.
The Ascot Gold Cup is open to geldings now & one won it recently.It is worth noting that the French are even more "old fashioned" than we are in this regard.
They have 11 Group 1 races in which colts can run but not geldings:
Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe
Criterium International
Criterium de Saint-Cloud
Grand Criterium
Prix Jacques le Marois
Prix Jean Prat
Prix du Jockey Club
Prix Morny
Prix du Moulin de Longchamp
Grand Prix de Paris
Poule d’Essai des PoulainsThe Irish restrict geldings in the following Group 1s:
Irish 2,000 Guineas
Irish Derby
Phoenix Stakes
National StakesThe Italians only restrict them in the Gran Criterium (their Derby also restricts them but is now a Group 2 race)
The Germans only restrict them in the German Derby. Similarly to the Italians the German 2,000gns (Mehl-Mulhens Rennen) is a Group 2.
Thanks. Dear oh dear, my knowledge of goings-on on the Flat has declined to the point of no return I fear- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.