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As for Pat Eddery……..Lets just say he lost more races he should have won than he did win and his ride in the 86 King George was a shocker he only just got away with and that was thanks to the horse under him!
In my view, Pat Eddery was one of the most tactically astute flat race jockeys I have seen.
After poor Greville Starkey got the blame for Dancing Brave’s defeat at Epsom – wrongly, in my opinion – Guy Harwood made it quite clear that the horse should be ridden much closer to pace in all future races. If you recall, Greville followed Harwood’s instructions in the Eclipse and won going away.
Pat Eddery followed suit in the King George & Queen Elizabeth, and won the extra two furlong contest at Ascot from Shardari – although by a narrower margin.
Having won his own special Arc trial at Goodwood; the 10f Select Stakes -Greville again aboard – Dancing Brave defeated some cannon fodder easily by 10 lengths or so and then it was all systems go for the Arc.
Eddery by this time was convinced that Dancing Brave was to all intents and purposes, " a mile and a quarter horse " whose class enabled him to see out the extra two furlongs.
Just before the Arc, He told Harwood that it was his intention to keep Dancing Brave right at the back for as late as possible in order to utilize his turn of foot. Eddery reckoned that unless he did so, Dancing Brave would not win the Arc. Harwood, although aghast, went along with it, purportedly uttering to Eddery, "on your own head be it. "
We all know the outcome, and Pat Eddery, to this day, will tell you that Dancing Brave’s best distance was at a mile and a quarter. As I’m fond of saying, make of that what you will.
You can defend Pat Eddery all you like Sir,but you want to take a closer look at the 86 King George,rounding Swinley Bottom ‘Petoski’s’ 2 pacemakers who had set a relentless gallop were both back tracking rapidly and Pat runs straight into the back of ‘Boldden’,he snatches the Brave up and swerves to miss ‘Vouchsafe’,this cost him a good length and a half at that pace.The Agas Pacemaker ‘Dihistan’ took it up and still blazed the trail 4 out thus allowing ‘Shardari’ to hit the front at the 2 pole,’Sharasthani’ the false fav imo never looked like winning as ‘The Greatest horse of all time’ breezed past inside the last furlong,badly ridden by Patrick ‘Ill give em all a lead’ Eddery!
I spoke to Greville several times and he said ‘Dancing Brave’ was his Derby horse the day he got off him at Sandown as a 2yo on October 14th 1985,he knew he’d get a 11/2m ‘stood on his head’ to quote him again! I’ll ask Pat when I see him at the DBS in March though!I’ll ask Pat when I see him at the DBS in March though!
Oh please do, and be sure to tell him how bad a ride he gave Dancing Brave in the King George.
I have no need to defend Pat Eddery; his overall record and amount of big race wins speaks for itself.
His Arc ride on Dancing Brave was class personified. Few jockeys would have had the balls of steel necessary to pull off such a tactic.
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Ever thought one of the reasons for my profit and your deficit Gord – could be Timeform?
No Ginge but I admire your honesty,I personally like to think for myself,I dont subscribe to paying for other peoples views and I certainly dont feel so lacking in confidence that I have to have 3 main bets a side order of 4 savers and 2 Desserts of extra chocolaty savers but it works as you prove.Anybody could do that mind,certainly most on here if they so chose to treat Horse racing as a numbers game.I get way more satisfaction spotting a potential star and watching them develop.There’s a horse called
Dawn Approach
,I’m sure you’ll find it in the index of Timeforms 2012 flat results,it will be under ‘G’………for Guineas winner,
I backed that horse at 20/1 last May
Ginge,I know you would have still been in nappies slobberin over your little ‘black’ book but when that one horse wins the 2000gns my thread will be back in profit,amazing eh? Of course before then I’ve got ‘Darlan’ at 26’s on the machine,stop dribblin down your chin,I know you put him up at 5/1 as ‘Value is everything My A*se’ when you fell off the back of my Bandwagon.Of course being the King of foresight I’ll be going into Cheltenham with all guns blazing.I might even repeat my very successful ‘TAPK’s Cheltenham wagers’ thread from last year that showed a nice £17k profit for me,being a generous type of guy I dont mind sharing my vast knowledge with the likes of you..FOC too!
As for Pat Eddery……..Lets just say he lost more races he should have won than he did win and his ride in the 86 King George was a shocker he only just got away with and that was thanks to the horse under him!Done your money I’m afraid mate.
Done your money I’m afraid mate.
Please elaborate Hamster! As far as I know he’s grown an inch and put 3 stone on and thats nothing to do with his Xmas Dinner!
Dont tell me he’s gone to Dubai for a holiday.His Arc ride on Dancing Brave was class personified. Few jockeys would have had the balls of steel necessary to pull off such a tactic.
Wrong again I’m afraid,Pat knows he over did the waiting tactics on
Dancing Brave
and if it wasn’t for the horse under him getting him out of trouble it would have gone down as the 2nd worst ride ever,Grevilles being the Worst.Had Greville got ‘The Brave’ up on the line doe you think that it would have been Brilliant? Not in a million years but thats the difference between Brilliant and Shocking.No Pat was very very lucky that day and he knows it,had he been on 99% of the horses he’s ridden just the same way he would have lost the Arc just like he did on
Bellotto
in the following years 2000gns! Thank god he didn’t ride
Zafonic
like he did those 2………Andre would have Kicked his A*s if he had!
Bit like Emmett Mullins on Sir Des Champs in the Martin Pipe eh Gord
Classic case of horse getting jockey out of trouble
"The Ante-Post King wrote:
Wrong again I’m afraid,Pat knows he over did the waiting tactics on
Dancing Brave
Provide one quote where Pat Eddery said that he over did the waiting tactics on Dancing Brave. Until then, I shall maintain the moral high ground. You must be one of the very few people who thinks Pat Eddery rode a poor race in the 1986 Arc.
Anyhow, I’ll leave it there.
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"Himself":2pyqzjzb wrote:
Wrong again I’m afraid,Pat knows he over did the waiting tactics on
Dancing Brave
Provide one quote where Pat Eddery said that he over did the waiting tactics on Dancing Brave. Until then, I shall maintain the moral high ground. You must be one of the very few people who thinks Pat Eddery rode a poor race in the 1986 Arc.
Anyhow, I’ll leave it there.
You wouldn’t get Pat to say ‘My names Pat Eddery’ in public or in front of a Camera as he’s openly admitted he’s out of his comfort zone but amongst friends he’s the centre of attention and actually very witty.There’s more chance of getting Frankie to spend a week in solitary confinement than Pat admitting he rode a bad race!You provide a quote where Pat says
Dancing Brave
was a 1/4m horse and I’ll provide a quote from Greville who says he’s a 11/2m horse.
I’ll give you the Moral high ground as I am one of very few who would openly suggest that Pats riding of ‘The Brave’ in the Arc was more down to luck than judgement.Pat never knew ‘The Brave’ would take off like he did,like no other horse,nothing has finished an Arc with such devastating effect and had he not then Pat was Stuffed and he knows it to this day!I think Pat Eddery got the tactics just right on DB. The timing left almost no margin for error but he knew he had a lot of firepower beneath the saddle to pull it off and unleash hell. However, I did read in a book several years ago that it was said a stressed Guy Harwood was nearly pulling his hair out just after the turn into the straight because he thought Mr Eddery had dropped DB too far back
I think Pat Eddery got the tactics just right on DB. The timing left almost no margin for error but he knew he had a lot of firepower beneath the saddle to pull it off and unleash hell. However, I did read in a book several years ago that it was said a stressed Guy Harwood was nearly pulling his hair out just after the turn into the straight because he thought Mr Eddery had dropped DB too far back
Yes it all worked out in the end ‘Ghost’ and it was a visually impressive performance but those close to the horse will tell you the same thing….’Pat Eddery pushed his luck and if it wasn’t for the horse under him delivering a performance no one could have imagined he’d have lost’ and thats a fact as I’ve spoken to them all!
Agreed TAPK. I watched the race with my Dad and I nearly crapped my pants with the tension as the race unfolded into the straight. In hindsight, it’s easy to understand that Pat Eddery got the tactics correct but during the live broadcast, there was a point with two furlongs to go that I thought DB wasn’t gonna fire … but then a split second later, the semtex went off
Borderline stuff.The Pat Eddery interview with Matt Chapman was aired on ATR.
I cannot recite each word verbatim but I do recall the gist of it. It wasn’t that long ago. Eddery said he remembered that when he rode Dancing Brave in the King George, he got there too early and it felt like the horse was pulling himself up once they hit the front.
So, he then decided that he would put Dancing Brave to sleep in the Arc – "out the back "
Harwood was almost apoplectic during the race, and was heard shouting, "what is Pat f****** doing ? "
Pat knew exactly what he was doing.
He told Chapman that had he been closer to the pace or mid division, then DB would not have won, adding that, in his opinion, Dancing Brave was a better horse over 10f.
Check it out, TAPK.
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Pat knew exactly what he was doing.
The plan is common knowledge,Pat was going to settle ‘The Brave’ towards the rear knowing ‘The best horse I’ve trained’ quote Alec Head on ‘Bering’ was going to be placed much the same,Pat did just that anchoring him early.he then jostles his way right onto ‘Berings’ backside sitting comfortably tracking the big French hope both horses are nearer last than first,as we all know Longchamps on the turn big time before hitting a short straight to the line,Pats big mistake is as the field are half way round the long sweeping bend he knows the Arc is won by those who dare take the inside route but he’s sitting widest of all……What does he do he pulls ‘The Brave’ inside towards the rail,’Bering’ keeps his line and Pat realises quickly he’s ****** up and knows he cant extricate the champ instantly,this move allows Gary Moore first run on the chestnut,Pat accepts the situation and pulls his horse out wide again,not exactly what you want to be doing in an Arc but like we all agree
Dancing Brave
was no ordinary horse and he straightens up Pat gives him a couple and he flys home for an Historical victory.That ‘Himself’ is how things panned out,the plan was to go up the inside and that plan failed……Plan B worked though and thats all that matters………Thank God!
All people who form ratings will differ in their opinion to some degree. The reason TF ratings differ so much with the official ratings is down to the slippage in official ratings. When the official rankings were first done in 1977 they used the same scale as Timeform. Hence the rating for Dancing Brave was pretty similar. TF 140 Official 141. The difference is that Timeform have remained consistent and not allowed slippage and still rate to the same scale.
At the end of Dancing Brave’s write up in
Timeform Racehorses Of 1986
they added a
Postscript
criticising the International Classifications. I’ll reproduce it here in full but if any copyright issues please delete.
Postscript: In the International Classifications for three year olds published in December Dancing Brave is assessed more highly than any horse since the Classifications were introduced in the seventies. A different scale was adopted in 1986 – to "bring Classification figures into line with commercial ratings" – and Dancing Brave was given a figure of 141. We are well aware of the pitfalls of criticising the work of others – no-one is immune from the blunder, the error of judgement – but we cannot for the life of us understand how Dancing Brave is reckoned to have given Bering a 7 lb beating in the Trusthouse Forte Prix De l’Arc de Triomphe. Bering appears on 134, sharing second spot with Shahrastani, so the official handicappers have given Dancing Brave credit for what he did not do. On the official result of the Arc Dancing Brave comes out 3 lbs better than Bering and 4 lbs better than Shahrastani. As we have said we make the winning distance in the Arc nearer two lengths and have accordingly rated Dancing Brave 4 lbs superior to Bering and 5 lbs above Shahrastani (in our view the Classification underestimates the merit of the two last named). But we have no truck with anyone who tells us that on the form book Dancing Brave is entitled to be regarded 7 lb in front of any other horse in Europe in 1986.
In 29 years of reading Timeform Racehorses annuals I can not recall such strong criticism of an International rating. It’s only taken the International Classifications 27 years to realise.
1st Dancing Brave 3 8-11
2nd Bering 3 8-111.5 lengths
(Timeform rate it 2 lengths)
3rd Triptych 4 9-10.5 lengths
4th Shahrastani 3 8-11
short head
5th Shardari 4 9-4
neck
Please justify the 7 lbs Dancing Brave is rated ahead of Bering TAPK.
If I may just add to this Dancing Brave came from virtualy last to first. When a horse is run like that imo you cannot factor in winning distance accurately by any mean as point being the horse is run to get up at the line and not to win by x number of lenghts.
Please justify the 7 lbs Dancing Brave is rated ahead of Bering TAPK.
If I may just add to this Dancing Brave came from virtualy last to first. When a horse is run like that imo you cannot factor in winning distance accurately by any mean as point being the horse is run to get up at the line and not to win by x number of lengths.
Yes thats exactly what I said ‘Solar’ the Handicapper of the time was ‘Anthony Arkwright’ and he said he rated
Dancing Brave
on what massive potential there was in that performance, a bit like ‘Timeform’ like to put a big ‘P’ and a little ‘P’ Bob!
Bit like Emmett Mullins on Sir Des Champs in the Martin Pipe eh Gord
Classic case of horse getting jockey out of trouble
Seems a long time ago now Tommy but you are right of course,I’ll give you another horse who got his jockey out of jail and thats
Sea the stars
in the Arc,that horse had a will to win of its own,irrelevant to what his pilot was messing about at!
That, " TAPK ", is YOUR reading of it, not Eddery’s.
FYI, it was actually Criquette Head who trained Bering, not her father, Alec.
Of his Arc race tactics, Eddery said that he knew Bering was the horse to beat as the Heads thought the world of him – so he decided beforehand that he would be the one to aim for, and as a consequence Pat said he kept an eye on the French Derby winner throughout.
Eddery maintains that his plan was always to come wide in the home straight – ensuring a ( hopefully ) unimpeded passage. It was also the best tactic for a horse such as Dancing Brave, as he needed time and space in order to utilise his turn of foot.
Another footnote to the race is that Bering injured his knee during the race.
Sir Peter O’Sullevan is convinced that this cost Bering the race, and later said that there was no way Dancing Brave would have beaten a fully fit Bering that day had it not been for the French colt’s injury.
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