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It was not the greatest 2000 guineas field but it was a quite unbelieveable performance, he’d have won the Palace House. It does make you wonder if a horse with so much speed will stay the Derby but there is only one way to find out and if he doesn’t they can always take him back in trip. I guess it depends if the owner wants a crack at the Derby or to have the best miler.
Once Saamidd missed the break there was only ever going to be one result! And so it proved.
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i think frankel is the best horse since nijinsky, in fact hes the best ive ever seen, he will definitely stay the derby trip, there was a headwind in the guineas and the pacemaker couldnt go the pace what does that tell you about this machine of a horse.
I dare say Ginger that they’ll show that Frankel would have won any six furlong race anywhere in the world.
Ridiculous statement. Any six furlong race against European sprinters maybe…
What makes the statement even more ridiculous is the fact that we have Black Caviar, a possible "best of all time" class sprinter running right nowIt’s not a ridiculous statement at all Presto.
RUK have just shown side by side replays of the 2000 Guineas and the Group 3 Palace House Stakes. Frankel, without being asked any question at all and just left to stride out for those five furlongs was a full five lengths clear of a high-class sprint field (the Palace House field).
Black Caviar apart perhaps, there’s not another sprinter around who could have lived with Frankel for those first five furlongs yesterday, and probably even more so the first six furlongs.
Or Put another way Presto, applying weight for age etc, if Black Caviar started that race yesterday and only had to race to the two furlong marker, do you think he would have covered them first six furlongs ahead of Frankel? I doubt there’s many people who can say yes with any conviction.
(I’m not referring to Frankel being a sprinter now or in the future, I’m purely basing my opinion on how Frankel covered the first six furlongs yesterday – I don’t think there’s a horse in the world that could have matched him)
Tuffers the clock never lies,Frankel could run that race another 10 times and still not clock 1m 35secs like Zafonic. Todays ground was officially Good/firm but arguably over watered and was riding on the good side which was exactly what the French colt encountered back in 93,both colts powered down the centre of the track but the difference was Frankel won his race at the start and would have had a 10 length lead over Zafonic at halfway but the french colt had a lightening turn of foot and would have swept past Frankel inside the last furlong leaving him one paced.Frankel couldn’t have gone any faster at any point of todays race and certainly wouldn’t have found anything had there been anything good enough to challenge him.
None too shabby for a horse that wouldn’t train on, don’t you think?
None too Shabby at all reet,i was certainly wrong about him winning the 2000gns,we’ll see how wrong i am again about him winning The Derby.I would love to see him attempt to make all around Epsoms 11/2m and that would appear now that he has to run that way as he wont settle,still a strange character imo and time will prove he is not a Champion.Top class miler,obviously.
- Total Posts 17716
Tuffers the clock never lies,Frankel could run that race another 10 times and still not clock 1m 35secs like Zafonic. Todays ground was officially Good/firm but arguably over watered and was riding on the good side which was exactly what the French colt encountered back in 93,both colts powered down the centre of the track but the difference was Frankel won his race at the start and would have had a 10 length lead over Zafonic at halfway but the french colt had a lightening turn of foot and would have swept past Frankel inside the last furlong leaving him one paced.Frankel couldn’t have gone any faster at any point of todays race and certainly wouldn’t have found anything had there been anything good enough to challenge him.
None too shabby for a horse that wouldn’t train on, don’t you think?
None too Shabby at all reet,i was certainly wrong about him winning the 2000gns,we’ll see how wrong i am again about him winning The Derby.I would love to see him attempt to make all around Epsoms 11/2m and that would appear now that he has to run that way as he wont settle,still a strange character imo and time will prove he is not a Champion.Top class miler,obviously.
He doesn’t HAVE TO run that way. Yesterday was the only time in his career so far that he has made the running. He was held up in the Dewhurst.
I would love to see Frankel have a shot at a July Cup. Other top class milers have switched back to the July Cup, Mozart springs to mind. It wouldn’t be taking nothing from the horse to admit he could be a better sprinter than Choisir, whilst not quite
truly
getting the mile.
The fact is that yesterday Frankel had so much in hand over the first six that they couldn’t peg him back.Wow!
For one reason or another, the past 5 years of racing have somewhat passed me by. I thought I’d been losing my interest in it somewhat, and no horse had captured my imagination since Dubai Millennium.
And then came Frankel. I’d been longing for the return of Henry Cecil for years (probably to remind me of the good old days!) and then last autumn I found myself with a couple of spare Saturdays to tune into Frankel’s wins at Ascot and in the Dewhurst.
I thought he was magnificent then, but I never expected a win like this in the Guineas after a solid but fairly workmanlike performance in the Greenham.
Frankel blew me away. After 2 furlongs my mouth was wide open in disbelief. I never thought he could stay in front, but he did. There was no point Queally trying to fight him. Frankel embodies everything I love about racing – a horse born to race like the wind – so why not just let him run.
There is a debate to be had about the quality of the field, but time will tell. Personally I can’t see him winning the Derby running like that, unless he settles somehow. I’d keep him to a mile. If he were to win the Derby I’d swear he was a freak of nature. But for now, I’m happy to settle for the visual display he put in yesterday. In a Classic, I’ve never seen anything like it.
Combined with Blue Bunting’s win in the 1000 Guineas today, I’ve not enjoyed a weekend’s racing this much in a long time.
I think it is time to sit back and wait.As Mao said when asked if communism was a success,"It’s too soon to tell".It took a whole year of racing to convince the hard hearted racing fans that Sea tne Stars was a super horse. So wait for Frankel to prove himself over a mile and two, a mile and four in Derby and Arc.against the best of all ages and sex at those distances.As for Zenyatta I believe she could have given him a ten lengths lead and reeled him in easily.Maybe a twenty lengths lead.She too had an enormous stride but knew how to settle.
I wouldn’t be so sure about declaring him the automatic winner of any sprint. A pure speed horse like him falters when there’s several other speed horses. This could also work against him in a Breeders Cup race.
So wait for Frankel to prove himself over a mile and two, a mile and four in Derby and Arc.against the best of all ages and sex at those distances.As for Zenyatta I believe she could have given him a ten lengths lead and reeled him in easily.Maybe a twenty lengths lead.She too had an enormous stride but knew how to settle.
Come off it Andyod,
Zenyatta was totally over rated. Ran against fillies and mares most of the time in uncompetitive events. Only put in competitive races against the boys once a year. And got beat in one of those. Even helped by a suicidal pace she could not beat an average Breeders Cup winner. Sure, she was a very good consistent mare, but not in the same league as Frankel for ability.Value Is EverythingSo wait for Frankel to prove himself over a mile and two, a mile and four in Derby and Arc.against the best of all ages and sex at those distances.As for Zenyatta I believe she could have given him a ten lengths lead and reeled him in easily.Maybe a twenty lengths lead.She too had an enormous stride but knew how to settle.
Come off it Andyod,
Zenyatta was totally over rated. Ran against fillies and mares most of the time in uncompetitive events. Only put in competitive races against the boys once a year. And got beat in one of those. Even helped by a suicidal pace she could not beat an average Breeders Cup winner. Sure, she was a very good consistent mare, but not in the same league as Frankel for ability.Please, let’s not have this argument again.
Frankel and Zenyatta are polar opposites. Z would get beaten in any mile race with her trademark running style; Frankel would get beaten in any 12 furlong race with the same tactics used on Saturday.
Maybe it’s because I’ve seen countless horses with that "as fast as you can, as far as you can" style, but I won’t crown Frankel as The Greatest Racehorse Ever in the spring of his 3yo year. The true test of greatness is if he can maintain his form over several seasons. Assuming he’ll actually get the chance to. Anyway, I thought that title has already been given to Sea the Stars and Workforce?
As I said originally. It is too soon to tell. So lets top the spoof about this horse.His speed is a freak. Galileo don’t get speed horses. Maybe a Derby winner or a St.Leger winner,but not speed horses.So is there any Galileo or Sadlers Wells in him? We will find out this summer.
RUK have just shown side by side replays of the 2000 Guineas and the Group 3 Palace House Stakes. Frankel, without being asked any question at all and just left to stride out for those five furlongs was a full five lengths clear of a high-class sprint field (the Palace House field).
Black Caviar apart perhaps, there’s not another sprinter around who could have lived with Frankel for those first five furlongs yesterday, and probably even more so the first six furlongs.
Or Put another way Presto, applying weight for age etc, if Black Caviar started that race yesterday and only had to race to the two furlong marker, do you think he would have covered them first six furlongs ahead of Frankel? I doubt there’s many people who can say yes with any conviction.
(I’m not referring to Frankel being a sprinter now or in the future, I’m purely basing my opinion on how Frankel covered the first six furlongs yesterday – I don’t think there’s a horse in the world that could have matched him)
Look, using a UK Group 3 sprint as a proxy for the world’s best sprinters is not the best way to make this point. I’m not denying that Frankel is fast, but concluding that he’s the world’s fastest just shows an ignorance of world sprint form.
European sprinters are a notch below the best in the world and the ratings justify that. So do results; Aussies, Americans, and Asian nations go to Ascot because of the prestige and occasionally do well, but European sprinters almost never do well outside of Europe. Borderlescott, a few months after winning the G1 Nunthorpe over 5f, couldn’t keep up in the 6f 2009 HK Sprint.
Trainer Robin Bastiman: "They are just different class here. Borderlescott is quick at home but he couldn’t lay up with them. It’s unbelievable. I think we’ll stick to England and Ireland in future". Jockey Neil Callan: "He couldn’t lay up with them – it shows you what sort of horse you need round here." Borderlescott races prominent over 5f in the UK. After the HK Sprint he ran placings in his next 3 races behind Equiano and Kingsgate Native, showing good form and speed.Maybe Borderlescott is an extreme case, but Fleeting Spirit raced prominently in European sprints over 5f and 6f but had to race held-up both starts in the USA over 6f and 6.5f. Starspangledbanner was not a superstar sprinter (although he may have improved?) nor a horse with freakish early speed down under, but was the fastest thing in Europe last year.
Come on Ginger. She failed by a noise to give 20 lengths and a standing start to the BC classic field!You don’t think she could reel in a sprinter over a mile and two? She was known for her enormous stride and her ability to reel in the best. Just wait and see how far Frankel can race.
Presto,
If you’re going to give an educated response, then please, don’t debate against something I never said.
Where did I conclude that Frankel is the world’s fastest?
What I said is this. Based on how Frankel performed in the 2000 Guineas on Saturday (and purely on this perforance, nothing previously and certainly nothing that he can potentially produce) is that I don’t think there’s another horse in the world that could have lived with Frankel for those first five or six furlongs. Of course, I could be wrong (but we’ll never know).
After five furlongs yesterday he was 15L clear of a Group 1 field (regardless of how good that field turns out to be), and in RUK’s comparison, on the first five furlongss he would have blown away a Group 3 sprint field (without even coming off the bridle).
I’m not saying Frankel is the world’s fastest now or in the future, I’m saying on Saturday’s first five or six furlongs performance, he could have won any sprint race. And I’ll say it again, I could be wrong of coure.
So please, rather than twist what I actually said, answer the question I proposed. Do you think Black Caviar would have covered those first five or six furlongs ahead of Frankel on Saturday when weight for age is applied. It’s a totally pointless question I suppose, and one that we’ll never know the answer to, but I’d love to know what you think.
Come on Ginger. She failed by a noise to give 20 lengths and a standing start to the BC classic field!You don’t think she could reel in a sprinter over a mile and two? She was known for her enormous stride and her ability to reel in the best. Just wait and see how far Frankel can race.
Andyod / Miss Woodford,
I am not comparing stamina or speed, just ability. Of course they are two different types of horse, but you can compare how good the two are in their own field.
Zenyatta had some wonderful qualities, but the level of ability she showed to win those races was not outstanding. A length win over Gio Ponti and head defeat by Blame are very good Group / Grade 1 form. But it is nowhere near the top of the mountain as far as form goes.I am talking about form, not consistency or how it looks when a horse comes from last to first, purely form.
As for Zenyatta giving the field a 20 lengths start, I suggest you go back and watch the race again. Don’t be bamboozled in to thinking she faced an impossible task from where she was. The front of that field went off at a stupidly fast pace and fell in a heap even before the home straight. So as far as the front runners go, it actually helped Zenyatta to be dropped out. You should ignore those at the front and concentrate on the gap between Zenyatta and Blame. Think of the winner being the front runner and imagine ten horses between him and Zenyatta early on; and you realise there are thousands of races each year where the same distance (between Blame and Zenyatta) was made up to win.
I am no anti-American, There have been many American horses at the top of Form Mountain, Zenyatta was not one of them. But as far as the neighbouring Consistencey Mountain is concerned, she was the greatest mountaineer.
Value Is Everything
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