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Finians Rainbow has been terribly campaigned this season simple as that. He may have won a Melin (a poor one at that) but 2 1/2 on good ground around Aintree is nothing like the tests he was going to face this season being campaigned against more thorough stayers, all to avoid his stable mate.
There is a fair argument of course to avoid Sprinter Sacre but the horses best attributes are his speed and at two miles in jumps racing very few horses have the requisite speed to race at championship level for that distance, he does and it is what he is best at and if he was with anyone else he would have been campaigned to defend his crown.
Glut of riches in the Hendo yard and he has ruined Finians Rainbow this season as far as I see it and probably for the rest of his career now he is into double figures. How many other champions would you have seen handled in such a way, poor.
Agreed tb, Finians Rainbow is (imo and yours) best at 2 miles or an easy 2 1/2m (goodish ground, sharp track). Have opposed him in both races this season because of distance and ground worries. However, there was a chance of Finians Rainbow staying 2m5f, so why not try him again and attempt to find out whether he could avoid Sprinter Sacre by going for the Ryanair or needs to go back to 2m for the Queen Mum? Best to find out before Cheltenham and am sure the Amlin was supposed to do so, but a breathing problem was diagnosed. Henderson no doubt would’ve loved to get Finians Rainbow on course before yesterday, but couldn’t. Something that resulted in yesterday being only a second run of the season… So I wouldn’t call running the horse twice over the trip "ruined Finians Rainbow". Indeed, with stamina and ground not being the reason for failure there are reasons to try again at the trip.
If anything ruined the horse it is breathing problems, something trainers have very little or no way of warding against. It is to be hoped he can recover fully, I wouldn’t be surprised if Finians Rainbow does not run again this season and has another bigger wind op.
Value Is EverythingAll I can say is in the quote section on the horses form on the racing post site
24Nov12 Ascot ( 19 Hy ,RPR158 )
Barry said ignore the run and blamed the ground, the ground and then the ground again. You either go on it or you don´t when you get into extremes of going. It does complicate things as we haven´t learnt anything at all except not to run him on soft ground again
– Nicky Henderson, trainer
So its all there yesterdays going
Soft
……. but if you think any serious Cheltenham contender is trained to peak in February you are being naive.
And that is probably the wisest sentence in this entire thread.
Most of these "trial races" are minefields from a punting perspective – the aim of the trainers is to get a run in before the one that matters. If they win without overexerting all well and good but the main aim is not to overcook them for the festival.
……. but if you think any serious Cheltenham contender is trained to peak in February you are being naive.
And that is probably the wisest sentence in this entire thread.
Most of these "trial races" are minefields from a punting perspective – the aim of the trainers is to get a run in before the one that matters. If they win without overexerting all well and good but the main aim is not to overcook them for the festival.
I am sick to the back teeth of reading garbage like this. Why don’t we just halt UK NH Racing between 26/12 and Chelts if this is the case? Let the horses run full pelt over the neccessary distance on the gallops, to save all us "naive" fools the trouble of assuming we are watching an under-rules NH Horse Race.
Is it really too much to expect horses/trainers/jockeys to actually try and win the races they are aimed at?
I thought Dessie and Kauto Star had binned off this nonsense of horses having "one day" per season. Its killing the game.
And the comments about FR being ruined by Henderson are also bang on. He’s (FR) messed about because the trainer has other options, disgraceful IMO.
Yours Rank,
Dan……. but if you think any serious Cheltenham contender is trained to peak in February you are being naive.
And that is probably the wisest sentence in this entire thread.
Most of these "trial races" are minefields from a punting perspective – the aim of the trainers is to get a run in before the one that matters. If they win without overexerting all well and good but the main aim is not to overcook them for the festival.
I am sick to the back teeth of reading garbage like this. Why don’t we just halt UK NH Racing between 26/12 and Chelts if this is the case? Let the horses run full pelt over the neccessary distance on the gallops, to save all us "naive" fools the trouble of assuming we are watching an under-rules NH Horse Race.
Is it really too much to expect horses/trainers/jockeys to actually try and win the races they are aimed at?
I thought Dessie and Kauto Star had binned off this nonsense of horses having "one day" per season. Its killing the game.
Yours Rank,
DanBrace yourself for more garbage.
I never said anything about not trying, but a horse with aspirations for victory in a big race at Cheltenham definitely wouldn’t be at peak fitness right now. Is that so hard to understand? For example, I seriously doubt Silviniaco Conti or Sir Des Champs were at 100% last week, but does that mean they weren’t trying? Of course not. Still quality races and still worth watching.
Also, there is absolutely no reason for horses having ‘on day’ per season. I don’t think Kauto had many great days in February though did he?
Brace yourself for more garbage.
I never said anything about not trying, but a horse with aspirations for victory in a big race at Cheltenham definitely wouldn’t be at peak fitness right now. Is that so hard to understand? For example, I seriously doubt Silviniaco Conti or Sir Des Champs were at 100% last week, but does that mean they weren’t trying? Of course not. Still quality races and still worth watching.
Also, there is absolutely no reason for horses having ‘on day’ per season. I don’t think Kauto had many great days in February though did he?
If what you state is the truth, i am sure it is, then why not stop NH Under-Rules racing during Feburay? Or as a minimum at least ban betting on it?
What in gods name is right about studying the formbook, coming up with a hard thought-out solution, before then having to GUESS is your selection is as tuned-up as his / her contempories?
And what about the poor "naive" people who perhaps save hard with hard earned money to attend one of these February meetings you are suggesting are nothing but a public training excercise?
Its beyond belief we swallow this excrement, and even more beyond it is that people look down your noses and patronise people as "naive" for expecting maximum effoer in an Race.
Don’t kid yourself – we all know the crack mate. Some of us just don’t like it.
I think you’ve been listening to too many trainers/trainers quotes Paul/THM. Trainers lie. What is the point of not having the horse spot on for a trial? Admittedly there are some (like Finians Rainbow) coming back from injury that may need the race – but that is the same of any other time of year. Absolutely no reason why trainers of every other runner in the race yesterday should not get their horses 100% fit. They can be let down slightly afterwards if needs be, before brought back again to peak for Cheltenham.
I’ve little doubt Silviniaco Conti and Sir Des Champs were as fit as their trainers could get them. That’s not to say they won’t improve for other reasons. Both are progressive and latter may be better suited by good ground/Cheltenham.
Of course beforehand trainers want the press, public and even owners to believe their horse will "come on for the run". It takes the presure off if the horse does not win its "prep". In my experience "form works out" (as much as you can expect it to) both in the trials and on the big day itself. Trainers know if they don’t have them 100% they won’t win the trial.
Handicaps are a little different, sometimes needing to read between the lines of form. But again, that is no different to other times of year. It is all too easy however, to over state the amount of fooling the handicapper going on. "Form works out" to a fair extent even in Cheltenham handicaps.
Some handicappers may be less than fully fit for a prep, but not the only way of getting a good handicap mark. A few trainers/owners are worth paying particular attention to when it comes to Cheltenham handicaps. Some horses seem to be given "plenty to do" by jockeys who should be good judges of pace… Before finishing with tremendous effect; jockey trying as hard as ever in the final two furlongs to win the race. But even if winning – the horse is likely to be well handicapped for Cheltenham because the superiority is more than distances suggest. Some handicap trials I just won’t bet in, Pertemps Qualifiers for one.
Even so, most handicaps at Cheltenham are won by progressive horses; not those dropped to a handy mark due to the behaviour of jockey and trainer. Although sometimes it is both.
Value Is EverythingI seriously doubt Silviniaco Conti or Sir Des Champs were at 100% last week
Ah yes, the ‘x% fit’ theory – such glorious stuff and nonsense!
It is of course vigorously promoted by all trainers who would rather portray their fairly basic and pretty mundane job of getting a horse fit for racing as something too incredibly advanced for the ken of mere mortals.
Laying on of hands is surely involved…
The insane cult of the football manager teaches us that we need to ascribe special skills to those who have scarcely any, especially whilst we hold an emotional or financial connection to their success. The stinging dissonance we would feel if that veil was lifted and the whole overblown charade was there for all to see, ensures that the status quohas
to be maintained.
As we all know by now the laws of science and physiology are frequently brushed aside by
The Trainer
who can remarkably prepare his horses at precise percentages of ‘fitness’ – 80% fit, 85% fit, anyone for a bit of 90% fit, guv? Maybe a touch of 91.72%? (All 110% fit when it comes to
The Big Day
of course!). With their obvious vested interests at heart, a seemingly credulous media is more than happy to peddle this farrago of absurdity.
After all, what could be more fun than buddying-up to these other-worldly, monosyllabic, rather effete, comically-dressed individuals?
Mike
"Peruvian Chief":hbzhc1w9 wrote:
Brace yourself for more garbage.
I never said anything about not trying, but a horse with aspirations for victory in a big race at Cheltenham definitely wouldn’t be at peak fitness right now. Is that so hard to understand? For example, I seriously doubt Silviniaco Conti or Sir Des Champs were at 100% last week, but does that mean they weren’t trying? Of course not. Still quality races and still worth watching.
Also, there is absolutely no reason for horses having ‘on day’ per season. I don’t think Kauto had many great days in February though did he?
If what you state is the truth, i am sure it is, then why not stop NH Under-Rules racing during Feburay? Or as a minimum at least ban betting on it?
Really wouldn’t see the point in either of these ventures PC. It is just these races in the run up to the festival where imo some horses are definitely not at their peak.
What in gods name is right about studying the formbook, coming up with a hard thought-out solution, before then having to GUESS is your selection is as tuned-up as his / her contempories?
Not easy to be honest but something which must be taken into consideration when having a bet.
And what about the poor "naive" people who perhaps save hard with hard earned money to attend one of these February meetings you are suggesting are nothing but a public training excercise?
There’s serious prize money on offer, I’m sure the likes of Henderson was definitely hoping Finians would at least run a place yesterday. I never said anything about horses ‘not trying’ so I don’t see how people doing their money has anything to do with it. There’s much much more to racing than betting.
Its beyond belief we swallow this excrement, and even more beyond it is that people look down your noses and patronise people as "naive" for expecting maximum effoer in an Race.
I’m sorry that you perceive this as looking down my nose but imo it is naive to expect certain horses to be at peak fitness for every race.
Don’t kid yourself – we all know the crack mate. Some of us just don’t like it.
So in other words Ginger, you are saying NH Racing is bent as a fake tenner?
Thought I’d better edit my post a little, but you saw it before I could do so PC.
I put in a sentence saying it is all too easy to see more fooling of the handicapper than is actually there.
It is always the nature of the beast that some "fooling" goes on, but it is no way endemic and Racing can not be said to be "bent". No more so than football, rugby, snooker, tennis, cricket etc
Value Is EverythingI seriously doubt Silviniaco Conti or Sir Des Champs were at 100% last week
Ah yes, the ‘x% fit’ theory – such glorious stuff and nonsense!
Sorry Mike, perhaps you would have preferred if I had said ‘at peak fitness’?
Surely it is fairly obvious that when a trainer says ‘90% fit’ it means there is a bit of improvement left in him, not that the horse is exactly 90% fit.
I think you’ve been listening to too many trainers/trainers quotes Paul/THM. Trainers lie. What is the point of not having the horse spot on for a trial? Admittedly there are some (like Finians Rainbow) coming back from injury that may need the race – but that is the same of any other time of year. Absolutely no reason why trainers of every other runner in the race yesterday should not get their horses 100% fit. They can be let down slightly afterwards if needs be, before brought back again to peak for Cheltenham.
You may be right Ginger, but I believe many trainers leave a bit to work on in the run up to a big target.
Take us humans for example. If I have a practice match a month before a big game, I’m going to push myself harder and train more before the 2nd game. I’ll be fit for the 1st match alright, but not as fit as fit can be. I’m not going to want to be broke up after the first game and be unable to train as I want after it.
Perhaps I’m way off the mark, but I don’t think trainers would want a horse ready to run for its life in races that are seen as trials.
If what you state is the truth, i am sure it is, then why not stop NH Under-Rules racing during Feburay? Or as a minimum at least ban betting on it?
What in gods name is right about studying the formbook, coming up with a hard thought-out solution, before then having to GUESS is your selection is as tuned-up as his / her contempories?
And what about the poor "naive" people who perhaps save hard with hard earned money to attend one of these February meetings you are suggesting are nothing but a public training excercise?
Its beyond belief we swallow this excrement, and even more beyond it is that people look down your noses and patronise people as "naive" for expecting maximum effoer in an Race.
Don’t kid yourself – we all know the crack mate. Some of us just don’t like it.Value Is EverythingGive me the trainer who states his horse is only 90% fit rather than the Punter who suggests it has a 42.5% chance of winning anyday.I can remember being told a year ago when
Finians Rainbow
got beaten by ‘Somersby’ that Nicky hadn’t even started training him,that was a massive tip in itself and proved significantly right at Cheltenham.I wouldn’t put anybody off backing ‘Finians Rainbow’ next time out,just so long as its on good Ground,the horse floats over it you only have to see his Aintree victory over ‘Wishful thinking’ to appreciate what a class horse he is when conditions favour him.What makes me roll is how us Punters are always quick to blame Trainers for bending what is basically bendable rules,they allow these sorts of tricks to be played so the Trainers play along.What doesn’t get mentioned anywhere near so much is the inconsistent ways in which certain Trainers horses are handicapped,its common knowledge amongst the ranks that if Horse ‘A’ was trained by a little known Trainer it wouldn’t get hiked by 15lb after one eye-catching performance.Trainers themselves are Handicapped by the same guy who’s supposed to assess the horse.I’ve seen horses dropped 10lb after 3 poor runs and horses not dropped 2lb after 5 poor runs,there’s just as much skulduggery going on with Handicappers as there is with trainers but of course we have always known thats part and parcel of what makes the game what it is.You only have to look at the Pipes
Buena Vista
to learn how to place a horse 3 consecutive years at the Cheltenham Festival off a mark of 133-138,its what you call bending the rules! Does that mean the rules are bent? No they are just bendable!
I’m not going to want to be broke up after the first game and be unable to train as I want after it.
That’s a different matter THM.
In trials I rarely back a horse who needs a real test of stamina in the given conditions. ie Needs a strongly run race at the trip to show its form. On the other hand; in most trials I do look for horses best suited by a test of speed in the conditions. Often that means a prominent runner or one with a turn of foot…
This is because trials are rarely run at a strong pace. As you say THM, trainers do not want their horse to have a hard race immediately before Cheltenham, even if their horse’s best chance of winning that trial would be in a strongly run race. They’d rather lose the trial than be in poor shape for March. Therefore, trials are rarely strongly run and often slow.
I don’t know what sport you play THM, but is it not true that if not fully fit it can lead to injury?
Value Is EverythingYou only have to look at the Pipes
Buena Vista
to learn how to place a horse 3 consecutive years at the Cheltenham Festival off a mark of 133-138,its what you call bending the rules! Does that mean the rules are bent? No they are just bendable!
Ah yes Gord, dear old Buena Vista.
Buena Vista is one who needs to race prominently to show his form and (imo) seemed claustrophobic. Appears once surrounded he wants to give up. Therefore, unless Buena Vista has a clear view of the front he’s a very difficult ride. So the jockey is pushing along early and "trying" for all he’s worth to get Buena Vista going, but with no chance of doing so. It is very easy for the handicapper to drop a horse’s mark if the jockey is giving him a vigorous ride.Conversely, if the rider gets Buena Vista not necessarily in front but with an unhindered view of the front (on the arrowhead) – the horse is as "genuine" as they come. A claustrophobic horse does not want to be in amongst horses, so will try its damndest to remain at the head of affairs when given an aggressive ride.
Of course it was only coincidence Buena Vista got the rides he needed in the Pertemps.
Either run over inadequate trips or held up pre-Cheltenham, racing prominently in the Pertemps.Although ridden more prominently for a while last time out, a strong market move for a similar Cheltenham Festival stalwart Son Of Flicka may be significant.
Value Is Everything
Either run over inadequate trips or held up pre-Cheltenham, racing prominently in the Pertemps.- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.