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With
Silvoir
repeatedly referring to Tom/Dene is this who he thinks he is:
http://www.apgaw.org/userimages/APGAW%20June%2006.pdfFactory farming was earlier mentioned, presumably with reference to intensive meat production.
Could this term also apply to the production and stabling of horses in some racing stables?Let’s be candid about this: there are plenty of racehorses locked up for about 23 hours per day with no paddock room for them. The only time they might enjoy the great outdoors is when on holiday from racing duties.
Perhaps the majority think this is ok as they are fed and watered and possible protected from injury outside, but it’s not a natural way for a horse to live, and some show problems such as weaving, cribbing etc. not seen in wild or semi-wild horses.
Happy
The same argument is used about animals within intensive meat production. They are bred for being shut indoors all day; they do not know any different; they are safe, clean and dry; etc.
Buy some spent battery hens and introduce them to an orchard. Have a few retired sows and keep them in a woodland with shelter. See what happens. After a few days you will have a job on your hands trying to get them in to any form of enclosure, let alone them ‘hollering’ to go in.
As for dispensable racehorses, watch their behaviour in an adequately sized grass paddock, with decent horse feed and clean water, and dry shelter.
The only proviso is most animals like to have at least one companion but some, including humans, are so bad tempered all of the above is not possible. .
"Surely the welfare of the horse is under more scrutiny now than it ever was before, and certainly in racing."
The same with what goes on during an actual race, but it still does not stop jockey’s abusing the whip in a race does it? And the penalty is little more than a slap on the wrist.
how much scrutiny once that horse has left the track or the stables?
"You say you have been interested in racing for over fifty years..would people have been debating this issue 50 years ago,"
Yes I have.
Not as much not as much, but as you see on this board like on a racetrack and in the bookies, it is not a debate that many like to get into.
Difficulty to compare the past with today for many reasons. Today it is quantity not quality. Some stables are so big that it is impossible for a trainer to get to know the animals in his care on an individual basis.
In the past there were breaks in racing because of the weather and set seasons for felt and jump. Now there is no respite with racing 363/4 days a year. Even floodlight racing. Nothing but saturation.
And as well as a slap on the wrist for whip abuse look at two recent sentences handed out. What would one need to do to get a really stiff sentence from the powers that be in racing.
British Racing has sold its soul and the first to suffer is the horse.
On the subject of horses being kept in stables for long periods of time; I had a welsh cob for 14 years, and in that time I saw a lot of horses come and go, all types, all shapes and sizes from foals to geriatrics. Rosie hated being in a stable; ok for tacking up but if you tried to stable her overnight due to bad weather etc she sweated up so much it was a waste of time. I noticed quite early on that the throughbreds were completely different..they couldn’t wait to get into their warm stable with their comfortable bed, their hay and their water. Sometimes the girls who owned them didn’t turn up to let them out till quite late the next day [yes; in the real world horse owners are less than perfect]. They’d still be quite happy;most of these horses weren’t ex racehorses that had been brought up to live like this. And out in the field, this wonderful utopia for our equine chums, I saw geldings attacking mares, mares trying to steal newborn foals from their mothers [one foal was actually kicked to death by another mare, even though the owner had introduced her to the others when she was several weeks old, and was actually standing by her when it happened].One miniature horse was blinded by a horse who was usually gentle as a lamb.I’ve seen horse die of grass sickness, of colic, laminitis; a few collapsed and died of heart attacks [they weren’t being hard ridden at the time; just out hacking].It’s a hard life, being a horse; always has been and always will be..their main defense, their speed has given them fragile legs, and their digestive system is an accident waiting to happen. If horses hadn’t become creatures with a recreational use, they probably wouldn’t exist any more. I applaud trainers like Venetia Williams for turning their horses into a field every day, but they are mostly geldings and mares, and in winter time horses are quieter anyway. I would assume that most entire horses would need a field to themselves, and certainly away from mares coming into season every few weeks throughout the summer.Pity those poor ponies in the New Forest or out on the moors with little food and no shelter.
Moehat
, I have read many horror stories about allowing animals to inhabit their natural environment but problems that occur are usually because of poor husbandry.
We had three unrelated boars at one stage and were told by ‘experts’ they would fight each other to death. All they did was take it in turn to service the sows and then help look after their endeavours – piglets. But they did have plenty of room and had never spent their whole lives completely indoors .
Given plenty of space, and monitoring behaviour (even humans can be aggressive) we have never ever had a problem. We’ve had a mixture (cows, pigs, horses, hens) so perhaps this helps, but the yards I’ve been involved with, where horses have been turned out in to paddocks every day, have also never had the problems you describe.
Do they not sell surplus New Forest ponies every year? This would seem to suggest they tend to survive and thrive. Don’t pity them, pity the caged animals we use and exploit.
In reading the article posted above, I am sorry to say that it is likely many of the "missing" number of horses are being eaten. Here in the States the kill man buys all he can carry at the monthly auction and trucks them direct to Mexico for slaughter and sale of the meat for the European market, now that horse meat is no longer used in pet food in the US. I can’t imagine that horses from such a convenient source as Britain would be overlooked by those concerns that are purchasing so much from the Mexican slaughterhouses. I do not mean to injure anyone’s sensibilities by this comment, only to inform with facts that may be news to those of you that wonder where those unaccounted horses may have gone. There are some monstrous videos of these operations on YouTube for those that may doubt the veracity of my comment. I do not suggest that anyone that loves or honors horses watch them, though. The memory of these terrible images haunts my dreams even now. Is it happening in Britain? If there is enough of a profit motive to ship horse meat transatlantic from Mexico, I fear that there must be a parallel sort of business on your side of the pond.
Sorry for the disturbing subject matter.
cobaltcanarycherry
- Total Posts 17716
I took an instant dislike to this woman
In the past 24 hours there’s been a lot of debate about the welfare issues of the Worcester abandonment and what Nicky Henderson’s motives for doping a horse.
When I read that I was going to stop and read no further. When you say "doping" I find that very offensive as you make the man sound like a common criminal.
Maybe I’m too touchy but Nicky treated a horse with an ailment with a banned sustance he did not dope a horse to make him go faster.
As far as what happens to ex racehorses is concerned I have had dealing with several trainers and found most of them pretty decent people who will go out of their way to try and find a decent home for horses at the end of their racing careers. Of all the owners I met which must go into the hundreds they all appeared to to love their horses to bits and if it was within their power to give the horse a decent retirment they would.
Sometimes that’s just not possible and horses end up as dog food. That’s a sad fact of life.
One trainer in particular I had dealings with was a cruel sadistic ******* who was actually banned for cruelty/neglect of animals. There are some others out there mainly old school farmers who were brought up where slaughter was an every day occurance (perhaps not quite)
On the whole racing people love horses and treat them "better than they would their own kids" (a phrase I stole from a trainer), but no doubt some of them find themsleves in a corner and financially they have no option but to put a horse down or send him to a place where they know their fate is not going to be green valleys and bright sunshine.
Hard life being a strugggling trainer who have their staff and families to think about. That’s the real world I’m afraid and it’s not always pleasant.
."Hard life being a strugggling trainer who have their staff and families to think about."
Maybe we have too many struggling trainers these days as quantity not quality rules?
Maybe we have trainers training, that would not be training if if there was more quality in the sport?
That would cut out the second-rate riders and stable staff.
That in turn would cut the breeding industry that is over producing at the moment.
And all that all that would lead to a better life for those who train, ride, the stable staff and the horses.
That would cut out the second-rate riders and stable staff.
That in turn would cut the breeding industry that is over producing at the moment.
And all that all that would lead to a better life for those who train, ride, the stable staff and the horses.
Err, apart from the "second-rate" ones?
Are you going to decide who are second rate, or indeed "struggling", or shall I?
Rob
"Are you going to decide who are second rate, or indeed "struggling", or shall I?"
Don’t be so silly!
All sports have to keep improving what they offer. THE BHA seems to be going in the opposite direction.
Bookies will tell you that more and more young people are betting on all sports but racing.
The BHA has to tackle the problem before it over powers them
Hello all
I have caught up with this thread, having been absent for a few weeks, not because I have lost heart, but because I accompanied my sister to the USA for a MS treatment not available here. I would quite like to have been on holiday but I’ve spent most of the time sitting in clinics, trying to keep her sprirts up. Apologies for so shamefully abandoning your forum during this time.
In answer to the one or two slights made against me, I make no apology at all for mostly posting comments on welfare or doping related issues (see my Endurance posting today, at least I got home in time for that). One person’s allegation that someone must have a moitive for asking quite rational questions about animal welfare does not dignify a reply.
I am baffled at the post that suggests my reproduction of a Weatherbys investigation into horses’ whereabouts is insufficient "evidence." This was Weatherbys, not made-up hysterics from "Animal Aid" or some other such off-beat lobby, for goodness sake!
Mosts posts on this forum (and indeed any other kind of chat room) on any topic are opinion, not fact.
I don’t dispute at all that horses in training have a very good standard of care – someone else that took that line off at a tangent, not me. What happens to them AFTER they leave the industry interests me.
Having been dismayed at the initial level of debate arising from my post its cheered me up a bit to come back and see that most forum members DO care.
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