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Congrats to Enable but that Sea Of Class is some sort of horse to give her that type of lead and almost got there.
The Arc, no question, even suggesting there is a comparison betrays a blinkered mindset.
No Nathan,
Foreign managers are no longer interested in the FA Cup and the big clubs often play a second eleven.
People are still interested in who wins the Derby. You get “first eleven”, ie the very best horses available running in it – every trainer/owner (“managers”) with a horse good enough to take part (let alone win) will run.
No Ginger,
One of the top 6 clubs City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal or Chelsea still end up winning it. They may not field their strongest 11 in the early rounds of the cup but still expect to get through likewise the early rounds of racing would be the Derringstown, Dante etc the horses are not always fully wound up, it’s a prep.
We’ll go back 30 years to when Wimbledon won the cup other than those named aboved you have Everton in 95, Portsmouth 08 and Wigan 2013
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The Arc is by far the better race in terms of class of animal. But the Derby is far more prestigious as a race. More important to breeders too.
The Arc is better I think. For one it’s on a flat track. Some good horses lose at Epsom then bounce back on a conventional track.
The Arc is also an ‘all age’ international race.Nathaniel wrote:
Reading this thread you could switch the names in the posts to the FA Cup and Champions League and it would fit in well.
The Derby being an Under-21 Final a better analogy I reckon
Yes The Arc as most horses qualify. The Derby you have to be 3 and very few fillies go for it. The Derby has produced 3 winners of the Arc in the last 10 years though. You probably also get a better sex life for winning The Derby so from a horse point of view…
These days the Arc is just as important for stud value as the Derby – if not more.
Value Is EverythingDefinitely isnt more important than the derby for breeeing purposes, the derby will always eclipse it on that side.
Definitely isnt more important than the derby for breeeing purposes, the derby will always eclipse it on that side.
Some years the Derby winner will be the better choice as a sire, ham; but most years the preference will be for the Arc winner – for all the reasons you rightly gave on the previous page:
To win a derby you dont need to be an out and out group 1 horse, you just need to beat a bunch of unexposed 3yos, some years the form is strong, some years its horrid, the track at there age is the testing part.
The arc is a thorough group 1 race year in year out with the best of any age, the track may not be as testing, but its a better quality race overall
Why would a breeder want a sire that is either “horrid” or not necessarily “an out and out group 1 horse” that’s won the Derby… Rather than going for one who’s won the Arc, a “thorough group 1 race year in year out with the best of any age”, and “a better quality race overall” than the Derby?
Value Is EverythingI dont disagree that its contradicting what i said previously ginge, but its just the way it is, for breeding purposes the derby will ALWAYS be the most important race there is this side of the world, not my choice, so quoting my previous wont achieve anything to this arguement, if it where upto me the arc is more important, but its not upto me.
And no some years the choice wont be the arc winner, it will always be the derby winner whos more important to begin with.
I can’t believe you and I are any different to the general opinion of breeders, ham. Surely the industry recognises the Arc is a better race for identifying top class stallions – capable of producing the very best progeny? True, you wouldn’t guess that by what’s said in the racing media and by breeders and racing insiders themselves; it’s not PC to challenge the Derby’s position in Britain.
One possible reason for the Derby being more important is precocity. Derby coming a few months earlier in a three year old’s campaign, so that could show better precocity than a three year old Arc winner. Certainly a Derby winner shows better precocity than an older aged Arc winner. Breeders don’t want to wait until October of their four or five year old campaign to see the best of their yearling (whatever grade it proves capable of)…
…However, although precocity is important to breeders – I would’ve thought ability is the most important factor and in the latter aspect the Arc comes up tops.
Value Is EverythingCoolmoore target the Derby (and win it most years) year in year out, usually with ran with pacemakers to make it a true run race, to make sure the best of the breed at that time and race wins the race as often as possible. The fact they target this far more, and far more diligently almost from their 2YO careers, than the Arc that can seem to be afterthoughts for some of the horses, tells me to the breeder the Derby is top of the list of importances.
The Arc a better class of a race tho IMO in most years – as mentioned 3YO and over, fillies, more mature and nurtured 3YO
To use a football analogy .
The Derby is the FA Cup final
The Arc is the Champions League final .
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Coolmore had the majority of the good Galileo horses, Rooster. Which is why they’ve won more Derbys than anyone else. Although they have won 5 of the last 8, that is the only stat where they’ve won “most years”, eg it’s only 1 of the last 4 and 7 of the last 20.
Make no mistake, Coolmore still target their best horses at the Arc. It’s just that any horse by the time they’ve got to the Arc has been targeted at some other Group 1 – even the Derby. Derby is the race all thought to be middle distance colts are aimed at; a race where connections find out whether a horse stays or not. And then all mile and a half three year olds are aimed at the Arc if they’ve proven or thought good enough. ie No three year old is aimed solely at the Arc, as it would be pointless missing other good races earlier in the season – important to give the horse experience otherwise it’s unlikely to cope with the Arc.
Can you name any Coolmore mile-and-a-half horse that has been fit and well in October, acts well on the ground and yet not aimed at the Arc? Arc requires a better quality racehorse to win/more difficult race to win; therefore it may seem Coolmore don’t target it – but they do. They had no better horse to run in the race than Kew Gardens and Capri this year. None better than Winter and Order Of St George in 2017. Found, Highland Reel and Order Of St George filled the 1-2-3 in 2016. Found also 2015. Derby winner Ruler Of The World 2014 and 2013 together with Landing Light. Camelot and Sir Nicholas Abbey 2012. So You Think and Sir Nich 2011. etc etc.
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