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Agreed – it has to be Kingman.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
<p abp=”485″>For me the breeding is more interesting than the racing in many cases. It is totally fascinating once you get to know about all the blood lines and not in the least pervy. It always amazes me how little some bettors know about the breeding of the horses who are carrying their money and how it would often help if they did learn the rudimenteries. For instance you can often rule a good few horses out of the classics on their breeding alone.
Breeding was probably more a consideration five or six decades ago and beyond. It may be breeding is more refined nowadays, coupled with improved groundsmanship but in years gone by there were horses that rarely won onfirm or soft going if they weren’t predisposed by their breeding. That said, this thread goes to show there are mating problems brought about by close-breeding and posing difficulties in pairing off that isn’t going to bring about “the insanities of a purer race”.
Agreed – it has to be Kingman.
What about Enable and Nathaniel? or have I been watching too much game of thrones?
I agree that Kingman will be on the list, not least because using him brings together Rafha with Urban Sea – the combination behind Gustav Klimt. But I’m not convinced that he will be first on a list comprising exclusively Juddmonte stallions. For one he’s much younger (and still unproven). So, with any reasonable luck, there will be many future years to go this route. More important is the fewer remaining years to use stallions with some of Juddmonte’s finest mares up close on the sire’s side of the pedigree. Dansili gives you Hasili in Generation 2 of a resultant foal; Oasis Dream gives Hope in the same position – and Zenda (for all her qualities) is not in their league as a dam. When you look back over Juddmonte pedigrees over the years, some of their biggest successes have come from combining their best female families ‘top and bottom’ (Midday is a good example of this). Putting Enable to Dansili not only does Danehill X Galileo, it combines Hasili with the Fleet Girl-Bourbon Girl-Apogee family that has produced Enable and Flintshire. So, I think it’ll be 1) Dansili & 2) Oasis Dream to begin with, with the hopes of a filly from Dansili. Mizzen Mast may also be in the mix, as another proven oldie, who has the added advantage of being an outcross.
CharlesOlney Cape Cross died a few months ago that’s what I’m saying it’s hard i think they will see how kingman will do . arrogate doubtfull oasis dream and dansili are not good enough I think they could go to dubawi it’s so hard …
CharlesOlney Cape Cross died a few months ago that’s what I’m saying it’s hard i think they will see how kingman will do . arrogate doubtfull oasis dream and dansili are not good enough I think they could go to dubawi it’s so hard …
Did he? That passed me by! Crikey, Kingman is my favourite but you don’t think Oasis Dream is good enough for her? A bit harsh.
For me the breeding is more interesting than the racing in many cases. It is totally fascinating once you get to know about all the blood lines and not in the least pervy. It always amazes me how little some bettors know about the breeding of the horses who are carrying their money and how it would often help if they did learn the rudimenteries. For instance you can often rule a good few horses out of the classics on their breeding alone.
I remember the breeding gurus ruling Golden Horn out of the Derby with comments along the lines of “Won’t get a mile and a half in a horse box”
Egg>Face
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Nope I’m not being harsh just fact his not good enough juddmonte don’t even support him with good mares his regressing as a stallion midday is the best juddmonte have got from him and likely ever will coolmore gave up on him . To see growl in his top 20 horses his produced just proves how woeful the stallion is and the 50k fee is a joke.
I was one of the people to have doubts on Golden Horn’s stamina, but it is very unusual for a horse to win the Derby from a speedy female line. Only Nimbus in 1949 did it and Panaslipper nearly did it.
In my experience of seeing & hearing people at paddock side on their way to put money on, many could do with learning a bit more about conformation, breeding and general fitness before parting with their cash.It will not happen as he will be seen as too working class but I would like to see her go to Kendargent to get a bit of the Grey Sovereign line into the pedigree
For me the breeding is more interesting than the racing in many cases. It is totally fascinating once you get to know about all the blood lines and not in the least pervy. It always amazes me how little some bettors know about the breeding of the horses who are carrying their money and how it would often help if they did learn the rudimenteries. For instance you can often rule a good few horses out of the classics on their breeding alone.
I remember the breeding gurus ruling Golden Horn out of the Derby with comments along the lines of “Won’t get a mile and a half in a horse box”
Egg>Face
Except for every one the ‘breeding gurus’ get wrong, they get ten more right.
Look at this years classics alone, Rhododendron was deemed incapable of staying the Oaks trip based on her breeding, and that is exactly the way it panned out.
Churchill another one instantly ruled out of the Derby based on breeding.
Rhododendron is a really poor example. She beat the 3rd placed horse by 6L and the 4th placed horse by 10L. She beat horse bred to stay like Coronet/Sobetsu out of sight.
She went toe to toe with Enable and got beaten 5L in the end. That´s about as close as any other horse got that tried to stay with her through a race. Is the blanket finish in the Opera really a stronger piece of form?It´s a bit too cheap to say: If the breeding doesn´t suit, the answer is it didn´t stay, and if the breeding suits the horse is just not good enough.
How close she got to Enable and who she had beaten in behind is irrelevant in my opinion, she weakened significantly in the final 2 furlongs suggesting that she doesn’t stay a truly ran 12f. This is also evidenced by the fact that she never raced again over 12f, with O’Brien himself saying she didn’t get home in the Oaks.
At the time of Oaks, Rhododendron was a much superior horse to the likes of Alluringly and Coronet, it was undoubtedly her class that allowed her to finish ahead of these.
She wasn’t keen and she had a smooth passage throughout, if we are to assume she didn’t stay as I am, it must be down to her speedy distaff line.
How close she got to Enable and who she had beaten in behind is irrelevant in my opinion, she weakened significantly in the final 2 furlongs suggesting that she doesn’t stay a truly ran 12f.
Yeah she didn´t stay 12f with Enable, one of the greatest middle distance fillies. She still pulled further away from the others. By that logic Excelebration is a 5f horse, cause he couldn´t stay with Frankel over 7f or a mile.
How close she got to Enable and who she had beaten in behind is irrelevant in my opinion, she weakened significantly in the final 2 furlongs suggesting that she doesn’t stay a truly ran 12f. This is also evidenced by the fact that she never raced again over 12f, with O’Brien himself saying she didn’t get home in the Oaks.
At the time of Oaks, Rhododendron was a much superior horse to the likes of Alluringly and Coronet, it was undoubtedly her class that allowed her to finish ahead of these.
She wasn’t keen and she had a smooth passage throughout, if we are to assume she didn’t stay as I am, it must be down to her speedy distaff line.
Some might say there’s always an excuse coming from Coolmore when one of theirs is beaten by a better horse, Voleur. But when did AOB say Rhod did not stay? If it was immediately after the race you could understand – before sectional times and subsequent form are taken in to account – O’Brien may have changed his mind. Although if something he’s come out with since you can’t really blame Ballydoyle – not staying is a good enough reason (excuse) to give the public for not taking Enable on again with the vastly inferior Rhododendron.
Easy to assume because a horse was going better than the winner 2 out means it did not stay. Fully effective at a mile where as Enable is very much a middle distance filly. So it would’ve been a surprise if Rhod had not been going much the best two out; particularly with it being her 7th start compared to Enable’s 4th. Latter not yet fully developed and/or still a little green. Distances back to the third and fourth were – on form – what you’d expect from a filly of Rhod’s class. On the day Enable looked quite a bit better than an average Oaks winner. Subsequent events suggest the form even better than that. Therefore, it is easy to argue Rhododendron ran right up to her best and had it been only an average Oaks would’ve won. Don’t see how she “did not stay”.
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