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Each-way betting

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 37 total)
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  • #6796
    davidbrady
    Member
    • Total Posts 3901

    Clivex got me thinking about this from his statement in another thread where he stated he doesn’t rate it at all.

    Personally I use it a bit although mostly on the bigger prices (say > 10/1 etc). However, I find myself betting each-way more and more if I go through a bad patch (like now). For example, I have backed Gungadu each-way for the RP Chase on Saturday but if thing were going well, I wouldn’t even consider each-way on a 5/1 shot.

    Also, while compiling the results of the Order of Merit Comp, it is noticeable how poor the actual returns are, even from a 16/1 or 20/1 shot being placed in a conditions event (1/5 odds)

    My gut feeling is that I should abandon it altogether because over the course of a season, win-only would yield better returns. It’s probably a physchological thing of being happy with not losing on the day rather than postpone a (potentially) bigger future return.

    What’s the general consensus on each-way betting?

    #145335
    wilsonl
    Participant
    • Total Posts 862

    Pretty much the same as yours DB, i.e. when things are going well and all that…

    I do however tend to stake the bet slightly differently. For instance if I wanted £40 on a 12/1 shot but was considering each way – on the condition that I could get 1/4 1,2,3 in this example, I’d probably bet £20 win and £10 e/w with the intention being that if it gets placed I simply get my initial outlay back whereas if it wins, while not winning as much as I could have done it still works out better than a straight forward £20 e/w.

    Not exactly rocket science I know and I daresay I’m not alone in the method. If my head isn’t too muddled by a long day it’s basically the same as a £30 win and £10 show.

    Lee

    #145336
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3224

    DB,

    Do you keeps records – if so do you record an each way as one bet or two?

    My view is the place bet should be recorded as a separate item, so that the punter can see clearly whether it’s profitable, and how it compares with the win half of the bet over a period.

    AP

    #145338
    Cav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4822

    I am usually surprised at how poor the place prices on BF are particularly on longer priced horses. The place market isnt as efficient as the win and layers seem to err on the side of caution, the tote place dividend is often better.

    Over the jumps 80% of all handicap winners are 11/1 or less on the RP tissue, and 80% of non handicap winners are 15/2 or less. Why not reduce the field to those horses, study them well, then back or dutch the horses(s) you think are value. Once you’ve done that give a quicker look over the rest and see if any place value is available on the exchanges or the tote.

    Each way betting with a firm where you still have to pay for a win bet as well has always struck me a bookmaker special.

    AP wrote a very good piece on each way betting in The Inside Track. Have a read of that, its very insightful.

    #145364
    ReasonoverFaith
    Member
    • Total Posts 346

    I am very strongly against it. However, I’ll contradict myself by saying that if I can get 10/1 or more on the place bet only then I’ll have a very small amount on.

    I’ve looked at my records and there’s no way that I could show a comparable return backing each way to what I do with my win bets. A few weeks ago I was going through a losing spell and on a Saturday afternoon backed Warnes Way (2nd @35) and Burntoakboy (2nd @12), followed by Border Tale (2nd @24) on the Sunday, I think I’d backed about 18 consecutive losers at that stage – and funnily enough that was when I thought about each-way betting.

    A few days later (Herecomestanley @ 17, and Arrayou @37) my mood was somewhat different.

    You hear so many times "well a 16/1 place is a 4/1 winner, really", and yet most people will know the return on your total stake is the equivalent of a 6/4 shot. Is your 16/1 chance really a 6/4 shot to get placed?

    Obvously people can play around iwth the win and place part of betting but last year someone made a point about each-way betting that has stuck with me.

    "It gives you a false impression of how good you are." I think this person meant that just because you’re getting a return on a number of bets it doesn’t really mean that much unless there’s a significant profit in it.

    …now if only I had enough confidence to stop it altogether!

    #145369
    Drone
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5411

    Haven’t bet EW for years. As I’m a level staker i.e 1pt win on all bets regardless of odds or ‘perceived edge’ I’d much rather bet two or more overlays in a race Win only than waste a point betting 1pt EW or – heaven forbid – split the level stake 0.5pt EW

    As AP points out EW is two bets – the Win and the Place – and should be treated as such in your records. Only then will you determine whether EW ‘works’ for you: it didn’t for me.

    It’s a seductive misconception that ‘long’ prices should merit EW; rather if EW is to be entertained it should be used only when the mathematical advantage of doing so swings the punters way e.g 8/9 runner races with an odds-on fav such as Kauto Star’s race the other day. Both Monet’s Garden and Racing Demon at around 6/1 were true ‘EW value’ made more so by the prescence of three 100/1+ rags.

    Not that you’ll get very far playing the EW card in such races: bookmakers are all too aware of this anomaly, as they are the related ‘punter friendly’ practice of combining second-favs in an EW Double.

    16 runner handicaps paying out a quarter-the-four also favour the EW punter as do 5 runner races paying quarter-the-two, particularly with an odds-on jolly in the race.

    You may have noticed David that in your Order of Merit competition using your 2pts Win 1pt EW rule I’ve put up a few ‘paper bet’ EW that more-or-less correspond to the above scenarios: Knowhere 1pt EW in a ‘dead eight’ with two 3/1 joint favs (taking out 50% of the book), 1pt EW on the aforementioned Racing Demon (KS taking out 73% of the book) and 1pt EW Huka Lodge in the 16 runner Vodka Chase at Haydock.

    Place-only betting is a wholly different kettle of fish, generally much more favourable to the punter, but can’t comment on the Betfair place markets, having never looked at them.

    #145370
    Zoso
    Member
    • Total Posts 479

    You will often hear about a punter being told he cant have an each way bet and the bookmakers will allow him to bet win only.

    Thats a clue.

    #145373
    Black Sam Bellamy
    Participant
    • Total Posts 442

    I am usually surprised at how poor the place prices on BF are particularly on longer priced horses. The place market isnt as efficient as the win and layers seem to err on the side of caution, the tote place dividend is often better

    This is the reason why the on-course books are now 1/5 odds in most big-field handicaps (especially at weekends when there’s usually an underpriced Paul Nicholls horse at the top of the market). Tried to back Miko De Beauchene at Haydock EW and only one bookmaker was going EW 1/4 1-2-3-4. Makes EW betting even less attractive.

    #145378
    slipperytoad
    Member
    • Total Posts 419

    As AP points out EW is two bets – the Win and the Place – and should be treated as such in your records. Only then will you determine whether EW ‘works’ for you: it didn’t for me.

    So extending the logic, why dont you back two horses in the race instead of punting E/W? :shock:

    http://www.slipperytoad.co.uk

    #145381
    Drone
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5411

    Eh?

    I do frequently, as stated in the first paragraph

    #145382
    Zoso
    Member
    • Total Posts 479

    You should leave all betting options open.

    Sometimes back win bets
    Sometimes back lay bets
    Sometimes back e/w
    sometimes back place only
    sometimes lay place only
    sometimes back two horses
    sometimes back three horses

    Every option has its use and none should ever be written off. If you say one form of betting is useless then you are taking an edge away from yourself.

    #145386
    Gingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 27800

    I prefer backing more than one horse to win than one horse each way. If an each way horse runs poorly you lose, where as if one win bet runs poorly you have at least one other running for you. I sometimes back 3, 4, had 11 win bets in last years National. The percentages added up to taking 11/10. A friend of mine critercised me for doing so, yet he backed 3 each way, with more chances of getting money back than me.
    Circumstances have to be right for me to back each way. I have backed ew at 7/2, when I believe it is almost certain of a place. virtually a free win bet. And did take 15/2 Racing Demon in the Ascot Chase. When there is one or two short priced horses I find it pays to back ew. Don’t like betting ew in big fields as it rarely offers value. You get 1/4 the odds in a 16 runner handicap for finishing in the first 4, yet it is still 1/4 first 4 for a 32 runner handicap.
    Other than never backing ew shorter than 7/2, the price never influences my choice between ew and win.

    Ginge

    value is everything
    #145388
    Kalidor
    Member
    • Total Posts 96

    I’ve only been betting on horses a few years now and whilst I’m not a big gambler I always tend to go for each way bets. I do the occasional win bet but not as often as I feel should.

    I do keep a record of all my bets though. I have every horse bet I’ve placed over the last few years in a spreadsheet listing percentages, stats etc. Whilst my win percentage is not bad for a social/amateur punter my place percentage is pretty good. Maybe I analyse my previous bets too much and stick to the EW stuff as I feel I’m better at that…. or maybe my picks are just sh*te from a win perspective! :lol:

    #145390
    MDeering
    Member
    • Total Posts 1688

    I like each-way betting as insurance. Usually when I see an each-way shot with a place price similar or longer to the favourite or 2nd favourite (whom would be at generous odds at least!), it’s a definite saver.

    #145397
    davidbrady
    Member
    • Total Posts 3901

    I presume you’re talking about My Petra in Noland’s race

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