- This topic has 54 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 21 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
There’s no denying Dubai Millennium was a very good racehorse.
However, you only have to go as far back as Singspiel, Halling, Pilsudski & Bosra Sham to find 10f horses of superior class to those beaten by DM in his seemingly impressive victories.
Any of these would have given DM a serious test.
Lee
i agree 110% with you transeurope/wilsonl
people have gone overboard at the temple of dm
he did not put up one performence to justify the overthe top hype he receives
DM tackled the best dirt horses in the world (Ecton Park, Behrens, Public Purse, Puerto Madero etc.) and beat them 8 lengths on their own surface.<br>In the Eugene-Adam he tackled the best miler France could offer at the time (late BC Mile placed) and beat him convincingly, in the QE2 he gave weight and a 29 1/2 length beating to a Group 1 winning miler.
My point about him being the best is horses have improved through the years, if you put him up against Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerrard he would beat them.
Martin<br>
Over what distance and where?<br>At Epsom perhaps, where fans of Oath would say that he is the better horse because he finished in front on that particular day.
Your assertions are as babyish as "My dad’s a better driver than Ayrton Senna ever was because he can beat the school bus".
Behrens………..Ecton Park………..Slickly……Almushtarak – I agree, true titans of the turf all.
No-one denies that DM was a good horse, and no-one is actually saying that he might not beat a few of the greats of yesteryear either. However, just to say he would win because "I say so"………….nonsense.
<br>Actually I might join you……………I would like to state that Trigger and Champion The Wonder Horse would get stuffed by Black Beauty and no-one can convince me otherwise. Not official ratings, the form book, those who actually saw these horses run etc etc etc:cool: <br>
In fairness Irish Stamp never states that the horse is the best ever just because he says so.
But to class horses like Behrens as one of the best dirt horses in the world is way off the mark. The horse never won a race outside handicap company and was fairly stuffed on the majority of times he tried.
You simply cannot argue about a top horse of any given generation beating one from another.
Irish is correct in the fact that training methods etc. might mean that DM would beat the likes of Nijinsky but surely his record, and that of the horses he beat (ok demolished) is nowhere near the level of form and consistency shown by horses like Nijinsky and BG.
It reminds me very much of the worshipping of James Dean & Kurt Cobaine. Yes they were good, in the case of the latter example very good, but the continual harping on about how good they could have been is purely immaterial.
Look at Arazi – if anything would have happened to him between his 2-3 yr old career people would still be calling him the next Pegasus.
As said before, DM was a very good racehorse who acted on dirt and turf alike but unfortunately he didn’t have anything running against him during his brief career to establish himself as one of the best.
The same will probably be said of Best Mate, which is a pity because in both instances it was/is not the fault of the horse.
Lee
<br>is
behrens
beaten previously by lemon drop kid 17l was hardly and being nice to the horse in his prime was he??
in third place calling home 9 yr old both campaigned abroad cos connections didnt think they were up to winning in the states hardly in their youth were they ??? if racing in uk they would be more likelyto appear in the rsa chase or the grand national than a grp 1 flat race
qe11 ran in extremely heavy ground (saturday called off and ran on straight course as ground unraceable on round course) he broke fast from stalls impossible for horses to catch him
eugene adam as u say horse he beat was best france could offer ??? and only placed in bc mile u mean dm only achieved what others did slickly was no great shakes not even thought good enough to challenge for top races in uk
still lost to see how any of dm form compares with
nijinsky mill reef bg swain montjeu seabird db ribot el gran senor etc etc………..
i wont mention his performence behind oath who could hardly be called on of the greatest derby winners
i would add in what was called his greated turf victory the pow
he beat the mighty sumitas  and beat all  (an appropiate name)  by 5l   and what exactly did sumitas  achieve  17l  behind giants causeway  in champion stakes ÂÂÂ
i forgot to mention in my earlier post in the qe11 why do u use balsida whomfinished last and did not give her running (completely different ground to her win anyway) and not the nags whom finished 2nd and 3rd as your formline
great stuff indeed
 style plenty  a great horse to watch
 substance  not a lot really
(Edited by prince regent at 5:53 pm on July 9, 2004)
PR – he won the Prince of Wales by 8L not five.
This argument goes to prove yet again that it is virtually impossible and pointless trying to seriously compare the great horses of different eras.
Dubai Millennium’s career was too short to fulfil the potential he had, and he was definitely around at a vintage time for champion racehorses.
D.M was mainly my favourite for sentimental reasons, and I believe he did not have strong enough formlines to put him in the league of the old greats. However it was the style in which he won the DWC that took my breath away. He was like a flying stallion in the wind, running freely on the sand, and when Frankie pressed the button in the straight he quickened further still leaving them for dead.
<br>u are right mesh
sorry it was 8l apologies
still not much of an achievement
to be flat out to beat a grp 3 horse
but i agree mesh he had plenty of style
shame about the substance
fu sendawar was clearly wrong that day (and not certain to stay trip either) and in his following race dissappointed as u say beat all and sumitas finished in front of him did they improve to be europes best milers
i agree though its an old subject thats been discussed many times on different forums and probably best left for history
Love debates like this!! Who cares if they are impossible to answer…..they are a bit of a laugh!!
So come on FU, give us all those many reasons!?
A top class filly by Giant’s Causeway will be running from Ballydoyle on Oaks weekend Mesh.
It would be PR. People wonder why the likes of Damson are not with O’Brien this year. When Mona Lisa, Drama and one or two others run they will find out why.
Indeed, i do love a good argument (even if it is seen as being incredibly flawed).<br>Unfortunately i’m not old enough to have seen Nijinsky, Mill Reef, the Brigadier live at the track (or on TV live for that matter) but i’m sure that they had plenty of poor horses in behind them, horses who if scoped would come up dirty, were lame the following day. Fortunately we live in a more open world now and when a horse has an off day the trainer tells after the race.<br>With regards to Behrens, it is clear to most watchers of US racing that he improved a with age or at least maintained his form coming into the World Cup off a 10f Grade 1 demolition of Adonis, he went downhill after the World Cup so it would be wrong to judge him on his beating by LDK.
Anyway this thread has got me all nostalgic now whilst searching the form and seeing the likes of Answer Lively, Lemon Drop Kid, Ecton Park, Kimberlite Pipe, Vicar and the rest.
On the subject of hyped 2yos i don’t think its fair to ask a trainer 12 months or 14 months in advance who his Derby/Oaks/Guineas colts and fillies will be, sure they may look good now but will he/she train on? Do they show on the racecourse what they show at home? <br>Nevertheless its a very big call on Aidans part to comapre Mona Lisa and Drama with Damson, i’ll look out for these two they sound particularly special.
Now for the 10f debate, Montjeu or Dubai Millennium?
:cool:
Martin
In my opinion I think DM would have beaten Montjeu over 10f. I just don’t think Montjeu would have been as good over 10f as he was over 12f. I also think if DM had stayed healthy throughout the season he would have won the Breeder’s Cup Classic.
As for his place amoung the greats, I suppose he didn’t acheive enough on the track to classed in with the best but for me he would have given any of them a run for their money.
Of course none of this makes any difference because we will never know who is better than who.
These kind of topics will always end up unanswered but it’s always fun debating. :biggrin:
<br>
Quote: from flagship uberalles on 10:11 pm on July 9, 2004[br]Sure we could just get the BBC to use their computer "predictor" and it’d settle all the arguments…. ;) <br>
<br>Could be onto a winner there, but there could be some controversy as the "predictor" often goes wrong and predicts them in something resembling reverse order.
Martin
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.