- This topic has 60 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Posts
Why are people so crazy about Min? He was no match for Altior in the Supreme Novices, he missed Cheltenham last also through injury and is unproven in a Graded races outside novice company. Yet he is a best-priced 4/1 now.
You haven’t mentioned the winner Ruby and Mr Mullins trains it as well!
Yorkhill – couldn’t see him staying the Gold Cup trip with the way he pulls during a race
Terrible shame that one of the only horses in training with that “star factor” is out on another layoff.
It’s also annoying that his best is probably behind him and his QMCC run is fresh in everyones minds. Never have i seen a horse go from being a superstar to “overrated” so quickly. He was injured
Take Un De Sceux, not considered in the same ballpark as Douvan, alright isn’t he?
Whilst it looks terrible that Ruby said all was A1 on tv the day before, people need to rememeber jockeys are not in a position to break news to the media, and its always possible a decision hadn’t been made by then. Or he wasn’t aware of the decision when asked.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!To paraphrase Donald Trump, nobody loves a great horse more than I do, and Douvan is a lovely horse with potential but to call him a superstar on the back of what he’s beaten is wishful thinking imo.
Pointless mentioning Sizing John as a victim; on ratings he’s a 20lb better horse over his proper trip. He was 150 at best when meeting Douvan. Here are the other runners-up:
Fencing
REALT MOR
DAYS HOTEL
THE GAME CHANGER
VELVET MAKER
ROGUE TRADERHurdling
SHANESHILL
ALPHA DES OBEAUXHis winning Sps: 1/14: 1/8: 1/6: 2/9: 2/13: 1/4: 1/14: 4/7: 2/1: 1/6: 2/1: 1/3: 8/15.
He was a horse of promise, well placed by a top trainer.
Praise for his jumping was seriously overblown in some quarters; sure, he could throw massive leaps at times but he was inconsistent and often sloppy and there was a very high likelihood imo that he’d be found wanting at pace in decent company. Whatever potential he had is unlikely to be realised now. When horses with that kind of build start going wrong, they rarely come back.
Fox Norton was in behind as well over 2miles over fences.
Hard to say he was just “well placed”.
Supreme and Arkle winner at ease….QMCC run obviously not the true running…
I would love to know what extra Altior has done to be so much better….
facts are great horses beat “good” horses easy, Douvan and Altior are great horses and unfortunately injured.
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!Assuming you mean yorkhill, I expect he will be Mullins GC horse
No I don’t mean Yorkhill, I mean Great Field who when he meets a fence right is electric. Admittedly he does meet the odd one wrong but if he’s improved any from last year I believe would give both Douvan and Altior something to think about.
Loooking forward to this fella too…not out till after xmas i don’t think though!
He will also have Min for it i reckon….
UDS for ryanair on the ground
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!I have to continue to disagree with you, Joe. On RPRs Sizing John has achieved only a 12 (pounds/lengths) higher rating at 2 1/2m+ than that awarded to him at around 2m. Willie Mullins often used to talk about Douvan as a potential Cheltenham Gold Cup horse, so who is to say he also wouldn’t have improved 12 for going up in trip and thus maintained his superiority over Sizing John?
Fox Norton was a 145 horse back then.
Although he won the Supreme by 4.5 lengths, the form comment is ‘driven out’ to beat Shaneshill who has won 5 times since in 21 races.
In the 365 days after Douvan’s Supreme the race threw up 13 wins from 35 runs: three Grade 1s and two Grade 2s.
In the 365 days after Altior’s Supreme the race threw up 26 wins from 62 runs: 8 Grade 1s, three Grade 2s, three Grade 3s and one Listed race.
As to QMCC not being Douvan’s true running, what is that conclusion built on? Nobody knows when the stress fracture was incurred. Nobody seems able to say what impact it might have had in the race (if any – he threw a massive leap four out). Walsh – never one to shy away from pulling up any horse who he thinks has gone wrong – completed the race, and the horse put in arguably his most efficient jumps at the final two fences. Nor was it the greatest of QMs by any means.
Even on Topspeeds, Douvan hasn’t hit 160. For all the high praise and high hopes, the evidence of greatness simply does not exist.
Hi Chris, I’d like to have seen Douvan over a staying trip and would much sooner have had a speculative Gold Cup bet on him than a QM bet. As you say, he might have improved plenty for going up. He might even have got his act together over 2 miles (although jumping at pace would always be a weak point for him, imo), but on what he has achieved on the racecourse so far, he is not a great horse in my eyes.
That he is a star is indisputable by reputation. But stardom and greatness don’t always go together these days; in fact you could argue that they seldom do in what has become a world of hype.
But, as ever, the forum would be a quiet place without such differences of opinion.
Fox Norton was a 145 horse beaten comfortably twice by Douvan…Charbel the likely 2nd to Altior, was 147 when running a very promising race and falling. Yet Altiors form is concrete compared.
There’s no doubt Altiors Supreme win was superb….Min in 2nd, trained and owned by same connections of Douvan, and not once have they had him mentioned in the same ballpark as Douvan.
As to QMCC not being Douvan’s true running, what is that conclusion built on? Nobody knows when the stress fracture was incurred. Nobody seems able to say what impact it might have had in the race (if any – he threw a massive leap four out). Walsh – never one to shy away from pulling up any horse who he thinks has gone wrong – completed the race, and the horse put in arguably his most efficient jumps at the final two fences. Nor was it the greatest of QMs by any means.
If you are even going to try and debate Douvan would finish 11 3/4 Ls 7th behind, Special Tiara, FN, Sir Valentino, Top Gamble, Gods own and Traffic Fluid then i will rest my case.
The horse came back injured after the race and hasn’t been seen since then..
if that runs taken at face value, we are talking about a low 150s horse…interesting
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!To paraphrase Donald Trump, nobody loves a great horse more than I do, and Douvan is a lovely horse with potential but to call him a superstar on the back of what he’s beaten is wishful thinking imo.
Pointless mentioning Sizing John as a victim; on ratings he’s a 20lb better horse over his proper trip. He was 150 at best when meeting Douvan. Here are the other runners-up:
Fencing
REALT MOR
DAYS HOTEL
THE GAME CHANGER
VELVET MAKER
ROGUE TRADERHurdling
SHANESHILL
ALPHA DES OBEAUXHis winning Sps: 1/14: 1/8: 1/6: 2/9: 2/13: 1/4: 1/14: 4/7: 2/1: 1/6: 2/1: 1/3: 8/15.
He was a horse of promise, well placed by a top trainer.
Praise for his jumping was seriously overblown in some quarters; sure, he could throw massive leaps at times but he was inconsistent and often sloppy and there was a very high likelihood imo that he’d be found wanting at pace in decent company. Whatever potential he had is unlikely to be realised now. When horses with that kind of build start going wrong, they rarely come back.
That’s crazy, Joe.
What about including the winning distances and how he won in effortless fashion?
He didn’t just beat Days Hotel, beat him by 22 lengths giving 2 lbs and won so easily it could’ve been a hell of a lot further.
Beat The Game Changer (who although inconsistent has some good runs to his name and the rest of that race worked out) by 14 lengths also with any amount in hand.…And yes, Sizing John is better at staying trips – but his 2m form was still pretty good. So Douvan beating Sizing John so easily is to a degree relevent.
Value Is Everythingthe old arguement, with the same answer, sizing john would be the top 2 miler atm if it where not for douvan
You would be talking about altior vs sizing john this year
Also his peak rating never achieved as he was never given the chance to prove his true abillity, its wrong to say sizing john was running over the wrong trip, thats taking away from douvan, would have been his ideal trip if not for the big fella
There minding him and taking the right decision by the horse, i dont think he would hide a massive injury if there was one, thats not to say there wont be one in the long run, but if he sais there being cautious, he should be respected for that, not called out for lying about it.
Ginge, Days Hotel was beaten 17L at levels by Top Gamble…Where do we stop when trying to just answer the question, should he be up there with the greats?
He’s never beaten a horse rated above 157 (when all rivals completed). Do you think he’s among the greats? That’s the only point I’m debating here, that those calling him ‘great’ and a ‘superstar’ are over-rating him and probably by some considerable margin.
He’s a very good, classy animal who might at some point run and win enough quality races to be spoken of with the greats, but is that evidence there now?
Is he a ‘great’ horse?
Hes not a “great” full stop. Without winning the top race in your division (at least once FFS) then its out of the question
Hes disappearing and unless theres a very unlikely return to previous level, will be quite a forgotten horse in near future
Also ist it an injury or a horse a little out of love with the game?
Maybe im being unfair but havent a few of mullins slid backwards a little early in their careers?
Hes not a “great” full stop. Without winning the top race in your division (at least once FFS) then its out of the question
Hes disappearing and unless theres a very unlikely return to previous level, will be quite a forgotten horse in near future
Also ist it an injury or a horse a little out of love with the game?
Maybe im being unfair but havent a few of mullins slid backwards a little early in their careers?
He is not a great no, that wasn’t exactly the argument from what i saw. Is he a great horse and has he been a superstar within racing the past few years? Yes.
Its a bit like in football, is Suarez a premier league great? no. Was he one of the best players in the world in the 2 or 3 seasons he was at LFC? yes.
Douvan had (hopefully still has) the potential to be a great but he doesnt have a lot of time which is the worry IMO, to cement himself as a great. So he probably won’t be a great.
To be a great you need longevity in the specific area and it’s unlikely he will be able to produce that.
Altior needs to prove that as well, Thistlecrack another great example.Injuries plague the sport as they are fragile animals.
Which horses are these you allude to falling out of love with the game from the Wpm stable?
Twitter: Jackh1092
Hindsight is 20/20 so make the most of it!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.