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Corrective Action does not count !!!

Home Forums Horse Racing Corrective Action does not count !!!

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  • #20146
    ricky lakericky lake
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2358

    Another shameful episode today , when R Hills (a God to some ) was banned for 9 days , 9 strokes with air cushion , 3 were flicks to correct the horse …no good Sir , 9 is 9

    The Stewards had no leeway , no discretion , rules is rules and just banned him

    With the Jump season about to kick in big style , its a worry that safety will be overlooked , what on earth does a jock do if his horse is trying to run out and he has no smacks left …???

    Would dearly love to hear the views of Ginger , Corm and pompette on this theme

    cheers

    Ricky

    #376234
    yeatsyeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2923

    I’ve always been against a strike but surely the jockeys have got to get their act together and take some action, the sport is being ruined by these BHA *****.
    Strike action worked in Australia a couple of years ago.

    #376242
    jose1993
    Member
    • Total Posts 1228

    Another shameful episode today , when R Hills (a God to some ) was banned for 9 days , 9 strokes with air cushion , 3 were flicks to correct the horse …no good Sir , 9 is 9

    Glenn will be in mourning. The thought of R Hills missing a Jebel Ali or non-carnival Meydan meeting because of the rabble society has, indeed, made me very sad, and I’m not the emotional type.

    If a horse dies as a result of a jockey not being allowed to correct a horse in a jump race, what will the BHA say then? Incidents have to happen to appease the RSCPA? What about a green 2yo on the way to the start; is it "abuse" if a jockey gives the horse a tap and 7 more in the race? I can only hope the BHA see sense, but their resistance shows they’re in denial, as Philip Davies MP has (roughly) said on Twitter.

    #376314
    ricky lakericky lake
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2358

    agreed Jose , but they are not the only ones in denial

    Still no word from Corm , Ginger , or Pompette

    They have been really pro whip bans all the way , and now strangely its gone quiet …..

    I cannot understand why the jocks dont go on strike , what are they waiting for I wonder ???

    cheers

    Ricky

    #376350
    PompetePompete
    Member
    • Total Posts 2391

    Ricky, there is no question to answer you are simply rabble rousing – and you know it.

    The whip can be used at any stage of a race any number of times if it is a ‘safety measure’ and no jockey is ever going to get banned for it.

    With Hills and Walsh the Stewards, having watched the video from many more angles than available to us, simply concluded there was no ‘safety issue’.

    #376352
    seanboyce
    Member
    • Total Posts 255

    The ‘safety’ red herring is one of the many obvious flaws in the new rules. If I’m approaching an obstacle at 30 mph with horses either side of me and I sense that my horse is thinking of diving out & taking other horses with him and I decide to give him two sharp smacks to get him back onto the right leg, focused on the job and safely over the fence there is no way that stewards will sanction that after the event.

    My sense that the horse is going to duck out may be based on many years of riding experience, thousands of rides under rules, close knowledge of this particular horse and this particular track but there would be no way that I could demonstrate that the horse would have behaved in a certain way but for my actions.

    In other words, only safety action that doesn’t work (ie I use the smacks and the horse ducks anyway) can ever be demonstrably safety based.

    It’s just one of the many nonsenses of these rules. There is no room for a professional equine sportsman or woman to use their judgement and their expertise to do what is best for the horse and it’s chances. Brian Harding’s ban amply demonstrated this. The rules do not allow sufficient scope for the riding of all types of horses in all types of circumstances. They are not fit for purpose. I can’t believe that the BHA hasn’t realised this by now but of course even if they have their inexcusable haste and naivite in introducing these rules has left them nowhere to go.

    #376358
    yeatsyeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2923

    I can’t believe that the BHA hasn’t realised this by now but of course even if they have their inexcusable haste and naivite in introducing these rules has left them nowhere to go.

    They can resign and let people who know what they’re doing take over. Another example they haven’t got a clue was the original furlong pole rule.
    Christopher Spence former senior steward of the Jockey Club has been "completely horrified" at what they’ve done.

    #376386
    ricky lakericky lake
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2358

    Thanks Sean , and to Pompette , at least he replied

    Its plainly a nonsense , apparently the stewards had sympathy with R Hills , but could not do anything as they are totally bound by the rigid rules

    Jose is 100 per cent right , the BHA ARE CLUELESS , A serious accident is waiting to happen because of this IMO

    Remember if your padded whip smack allocation is used up , you cannot give the horse another one , as if you do you are looking at a 5 day ban and loss of earnings , for that you risk your safety and more important the possible compromise of safety to other Horses and Jocks

    What on earth are the jockeys doing putting up with it ???

    Corm and Ginger still no word ,

    Ricky

    #376598
    cormack15cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8783

    Pete has it right (see above).

    The rules do not allow sufficient scope for the riding of all types of horses in all types of circumstances.

    NO set of rules could cover

    every single scenario

    and no one is saying the rules are perfect.

    But they represent a step forward in minimising whip use and in challenging the whip culture within the sport. And THAT is their primary purpose.

    One in every ten Group or Graded Steeplchases 3m 2f or longer resulted in a whip offence being committed under old rules. 10%. These are races where horses are tired, exhausted often. The whip offence rate increases as the prize/prestige value increases (5.16% for the same distance races overall). This means that when the prize increases the jockeys are

    more likely to ignore the rules

    . the ‘win-at-costs mentality’ clearly ramps up.

    One in ten races. That is a more significant and telling stat than the % compliance rate (rides Vs runners) which is meaningless to a large extent as whip offences are largely confined to those horses in strong contention.

    The culture needs to change. Stiffer penalties

    should

    have been the stick to do that but aren’t really working. That tells you the culture is even more embedded than everyone thought.

    Education/training of jockeys is perhaps required and I’d be hoping that there is some significant action in that direction.

    Ricky – there you go.

    #376600
    cormack15cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8783

    I should point out that the one in ten stat is for WINNERS of those races only.

    One in ten winning rides over 3m 2f or longer in steeplechases resulted in the winning rider misusing the whip.

    Do people honestly find that acceptable?

    #376606
    CavCav
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4811

    Do people honestly find that acceptable?

    Only if there was subsequent welfare issues for all of the horses involved due directly to the misuse of the whip.

    Do you have that data, cormack? Otherwise your putting two and two and getting five, and that’s no way to frame rules in any jurisdiction.

    You seem to have no problem with "exhausted" horses, as long as their not hit 9 times.

    :?

    #376611
    fitzer1987fitzer1987
    Participant
    • Total Posts 221

    To be honest this is getting to be more of a joke evry single day that passes without the rules being changed for National Hunt.

    The game is over until the BHA cop themselves on. Those of you in favour of these rules are killing the game you claim to love.

    Its the begining of the end for National Hunt in the UK.

    #376614
    cormack15cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8783

    No I don’t have that data Cav, I’ll look into it.

    But commonsense and decency would surely suggest that it is unfair, looking at it from a human standpoint, to continually hit a clearly exhausted horse. I don’t need to look at data to understand that. It is not simply about welfare as measured by whip weals, etc, it is about what is intuitively the right thing to do. But I appreciate we all have a different inuitive reaction to such things. That’s, I guess, why we are debating this so vehemently.

    That viewpoint (of mine), of course, begs your question about whether it is fair to race horses until the point of exhaustion. Last season’s Eider Chase was not pretty. I was there and, in fact, went to the unsaddling enclosure after the race to see Comply Or Die. I have seen a lot of racing but have never seen horses who were as flat-out exhausted as I did that day. I’m not sure we should have scenes like that as part of the sport. Perhaps long distance chases over 3m 2f (or thereabouts) shouldn’t be run in heavy ground on certain courses?

    It’s not an easy question or set of questions. I don’t have a black/white view on it. I just think the new rules were necessary, they’re not perfect and need further work, but they were required.

    #376623
    ricky lakericky lake
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2358

    Corm , firstly thanks for posting , I was starting to wonder if you just liked holding the high moral ground :lol:

    Ok as for your argument on exhausted horses , no disagreement from me whatsoever , in fact I will go all the way and say we should not be racing horses on ground as bad as that , but greed is a terrible thing…on all parties behalf , and its shameful 100 per cent

    My point was a lot simpler and less emotive

    I will ask again

    R Hills was banned for 9 days , as he gave the horse 3 flicks to correct him for safety , a flat race , no exhaustion issue at all

    but the stewards still banned him as his total was 9

    This cannot be right , it opens the door for accidents , common sense seems to have gone out the window

    We agree to differ on the whip issue , but I respect your view

    Personally I think its the end of racing as we know it , I dont think the jocks will be able to adapt to 8 strokes including correction , its a shame , but racing has sold itself to the RSPCA for no good reason , they could have gone about this whole saga differently and with full agreement after a good trial and error period …what we are left with is draconian PURE AND SIMPLE , I could never back a horse with confidence now , especially if a Jock is staring at another lengthy ban if over the limit …so Ruby and AP are on tenterhooks , the rides thay will give their mounts will reflect that , punters will lose interest in droves

    We should not lose sight of the punters , they keep the game going , I think we will see reaction from the Owners , they will migrate their horses to more competitive shores , that’s a cert

    cheers and thanks again

    Ricky

    #376627
    seanryan
    Member
    • Total Posts 41

    Dont know if it has been picked up elsewhere but I see animalaid got a "response" in the guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree … intcmp=239

    Does not reveal " the campaigning organisations " true agenda – to ban all horse racing. Depressing reading and horrible to think that by producing the report the BHA have advanced these people’s agenda.

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