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I would be quite happy if i were the owner of Dynaste.
He is only a 6 year old, and i think he could be open to even more improvement.
Looks a really nice sort.
Well Istabraq wasnt kept to 2 miles was he??? I seem to remember him winning the longer novice hurdle race at cheltenham. A trick repeated by Hardy Eustace who also a champion hurdler which generally carries more prestige than a stayer. Dont get me wrong, BB is a great stayer but his best opponent was years ago in the form of Punchestown, he was a suspect chaser, he was readily beatable at shorter distances and yet people want to call him a legend.
Am I asking too much to want the truly great horses to show some flexibility.
SHL,
Istabraq wasn’t kept to 2m, true. But he wasn’t as good at 2 1/2 miles unless a test of speed. Winning Sun Alliance on good-firm and Aintree Hurdle on good at the longer distance. Yet beaten by both Pridwell at Aintree and Limestione Lad at Fairyhouse both on soft ground.So my point of Istabraq not proving as good where stamina was key still remains. Just as Big Buck’s would not be as effective when speed is key. Although of course at 3 miles he has amazing speed for a stayer.
Value Is EverythingBig Bucks is top class and today he yet again powered home after looking in trouble for a bit. However, is it unfair to say his greatness is elevated by the fact that the 3m hurdle division is terribly weak? Don’t get me wrong his 15 wins in a row is very rare indeed and worthy of praise. I’d just love to see him over fences next season so he can be tested in higher company. As for the WH in March – they should just award him the win now.
I was thinking they should maybe attempt this record they’re after by going to the World Hurdle and then Aintree. Going for the Cleeve then Cheltenham doesn’t do much to disuade the people who think they shuld reach higher with this horse. I hope that if they win the WH they go back to Aintree, but only time will tell. Maybe the Cleeve was an excuse for ending the season earlier as well as taking the easier route to getting this record.
IMHO so long as BB sticks to races over extreme distances where the opposition is limited he’ll never be taken to heart by the majority of race-goers despite his well-deserved ovations at Cheltenham yesterday. The Australian attitude to distance seems much more fun to me though I think I understand the reasons why we approach it the way we do.
SHL,
Istabraq wasn’t kept to 2m, true. But he wasn’t as good at 2 1/2 miles unless a test of speed. Winning Sun Alliance on good-firm and Aintree Hurdle on good at the longer distance. Yet beaten by both Pridwell at Aintree and Limestione Lad at Fairyhouse both on soft ground.So my point of Istabraq not proving as good where stamina was key still remains. Just as Big Buck’s would not be as effective when speed is key. Although of course at 3 miles he has amazing speed for a stayer.
Both of those races were run on extremely heavy ground. If I remember correctly, Istabraq could never handle soft ground particularly well and was infinitely better with it quicker underfoot. He stayed 2 1/2m okay, just couldn’t quicken in the mud.
Even so, it took excellent rides to beat him in those two races. Istabraq still stayed-on powerfully and made a great deal of ground to close on Limestone Lad at Fairyhouse, but the ground blunted his trademark speed. Charlie Swan might have sat a bit closer to Limestone Lad if he could turn back time too.
Am I asking too much to want the truly great horses to show some flexibility.
That Frankel horse not much good then because he has stayed at a mile?
As Ted Walsh said yesterday, 3-mile hurdling is a consolation prize for horses not quick enough for 2 mile hurdling and who can’t jump fences. BB may have the ability to challenge for the more prestigious prizes, but I guess we’ll never know.
Ted Walsh has come away with some crackers in his time. There’s a cracker on U tube which I’ll try and dig up.
This is a cracker too. I suppose the Gold Cup is a consolation prize for horses that can’t wina QMCC
The World Hurdle and the other group 1 horses are for horses who are bred to stay.
Maybe Ted thinks all races should be run over 2miles and those who breed 3 milers should just stop and close down.
Ted also had that caveat about Moscow Flyer; 3 miles over fences is more prestigious than 2, just as 2 miles over hurdles is more prestigious than 3.
No one ever goes to the sales to buy a 3 mile hurdler.
If another trainer had BB, he would surely have been given his chance at the bigger prizes.Ted Walsh said it so it must be true.
He’s an ex-jockey, trainer. Not a clue about handicapping horses.
Such wholesale statements are crazy.Surely two miler’s form should be judged against other 2 milers?
Stayers should be judged against stayers.
And then use form lines between the groups to come to a mathematical opinion on what rating each horse is given.In Timeform Chasers And Hurdlers Big Buck’s had a rating of 176+,
Hurricane Fly 172 and Grands Crus 171.Other hurdles ratings of horses BB beat are:
Time For Rupert 166, Punchestowns 171, Mighty Man 166.That’s compared with the best 2 milers of:
Binocular 168, Punjabi 164, Sizing Europe 165, Katchit 163.Or Inglis Drever 169.
Some people seem to believe Big Buck’s has been beating poor horses all his life. He hasn’t. Connections who’ve taken him on over the years realised his quality, avoiding Big Buck’s by going over fences, where they might find easier pickings.
Value Is EverythingThe only thing which is going to deprive Big Bucks in beating the record is if he falls. Other than that I think he can go on and win at least 20 in a row.
Big Bucks
Ted Walsh said it so it must be true.
He’s an ex-jockey, trainer. Not a clue about handicapping horses.
Such wholesale statements are crazy.Surely two miler’s form should be judged against other 2 milers?
Stayers should be judged against stayers.
And then use form lines between the groups to come to a mathematical opinion on what rating each horse is given.In Timeform Chasers And Hurdlers Big Buck’s had a rating of 176+,
Hurricane Fly 172 and Grands Crus 171.Other hurdles ratings of horses BB beat are:
Time For Rupert 166, Punchestowns 171, Mighty Man 166.That’s compared with the best 2 milers of:
Binocular 168, Punjabi 164, Sizing Europe 165, Katchit 163.Or Inglis Drever 169.
Some people seem to believe Big Buck’s has been beating poor horses all his life. He hasn’t. Connections who’ve taken him on over the years realised his quality, avoiding Big Buck’s by going over fences, where they might find easier pickings.
I dont think he has beaten crap all his life. I thought Punchestown was a very very good horse. However, the champion hurdle attracts the best 2 milers hurdlers, the gold cup attracts the best 3 mile chaser. Does the stayers hurdle really attract the best horses to run at that distance??…i dont think so because they are either gone chasing or gone back to show speed at lesser distances. I think the combination of BBs ability with the nature of the opposition he likely to meet means he could go another 3 or 3 years unbeaten.
SHL
I dont think he has beaten crap all his life. I thought Punchestown was a very very good horse. However, the champion hurdle attracts the best 2 milers hurdlers, the gold cup attracts the best 3 mile chaser. Does the stayers hurdle really attract the best horses to run at that distance??…i dont think so because they are either gone chasing or gone back to show speed at lesser distances. I think the combination of BBs ability with the nature of the opposition he likely to meet means he could go another 3 or 3 years unbeaten.
But Timeform ratings (shown above) for the best staying hurdlers of the last few years (even without Big Buck’s) – stand up really well against the best 2 mile hurdlers ratings. So judging by Timeform ratings SHL, you are clearly wrong. BB
has
beaten several staying hurdlers over the years that have been at least of
equal (if not better) ability
than the best 2 mile hurdlers of the same era. Don’t know what the BHA marks were, be surprised if it is vastly different.
You might have been right 20 or 30 years ago, but not these days.
Value Is EverythingThis is nonsense; I’m not denying BB is a very good horse, but the truth is, if he was fast enough, he’d be going for the Champion Hurdle. If he could jump fences, he’d be going for the Gold Cup. Tell me that is not true.
I dont think he has beaten crap all his life. I thought Punchestown was a very very good horse. However, the champion hurdle attracts the best 2 milers hurdlers, the gold cup attracts the best 3 mile chaser. Does the stayers hurdle really attract the best horses to run at that distance??…i dont think so because they are either gone chasing or gone back to show speed at lesser distances. I think the combination of BBs ability with the nature of the opposition he likely to meet means he could go another 3 or 3 years unbeaten.
But Timeform ratings (shown above) for the best staying hurdlers of the last few years (even without Big Buck’s) – stand up really well against the best 2 mile hurdlers ratings. So judging by Timeform ratings SHL, you are clearly wrong. BB
has
beaten several staying hurdlers over the years that have been at least of
equal (if not better) ability
than the best 2 mile hurdlers of the same era. Don’t know what the BHA marks were, be surprised if it is vastly different.
You might have been right 20 or 30 years ago, but not these days.
Comparing the 2 Mile and 3 Mile division is practically impossible. Obviously they are all rated in relation to those in their division and cross comparisons seem frankly difficult. Secondly, 2 Mile Hurdlers are alot lot faster, whilst the staying hurdlers are the opposite. Both have very different skill-sets. I will say this ; How Time For Rupert was rated at a similar level to some Champion Hurdlers i’ll never know.
I think Big Bucks might be a little overated in the sense that he is clearly racking up a sequence largely in very uncontested races outside of the Festivals. He’s clearly an exceptional horse, but i’d be hesistant to say he’s the best horse in training (he’s not the best horse in his own yard IMO).
Since going hurdling, looking at what he’s beat is perhaps a tad misleading. Of the sequence :
1st – Beat Don’t Push it (A plodder) in a handicap. Don’t Push it is a good horse, but never translated his ability into true
reliable
graded ability
2nd – Beat Punchestown. Fair along in 3rd.
3rd – Beat Punchestown. Punchestown looked like a very talented horse, but did not translate to fences at all and has achieved very little since the stayers division.
4th – Beat Mighty man. Very good horse (beaten by both My Way de Solzen/Inglish Drever) but was facing Big Bucks are long injury.
5th – Beat Lough Derg. Admirable handicapper but nothing more
6th – Beat Karabak and Diamond Harry. Karabak has won just once in open company since his Novice days, whilst Diamond Harry has yet to win against the elite in an non-handicap.
7th – Beat Time For Rupert. In my view very overated and has failed to reach the elite over Fences
8th – Beat Souffleur. Not much else to say
9th – Beat Duc De Regneire. Talented horse but not elite
10th – Beat Lough Derg
11th – Beat Grand Crus
12th – Beat Grand Crus. Now initially this looks like the best opponent he has beaten. But im still wary of Grand Crus and will wait until he either is tested in the Gold Cup or generally outside of Novice company. I remember being very keen on Punchestown going into the Festival, and have become wary of hyped staying hurdlers going over Fences. Still a true question mark for me.
13th – Beat Five Dream
14th – Beat Five Dream
15th – Beat Dynaste. I think Dynaste is actually a very good horse, as showed when getting Big Bucks off the birdle relatively early.
There is no doubt Big Bucks has beaten some very talented opponents. However, some failed to progress such as Punchestowns, Karabak, Diamond Harry, Time For Rupert, others were not top class ; Lough Derb, Soufflier. I think Big Bucks is an exceptional horse who has been remarkably consistent but im not sure the competition has been as strong as percieved.
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