The home of intelligent horse racing discussion
The home of intelligent horse racing discussion

Britain – a democracy? Oh yeah – read on…

Home Forums Lounge Britain – a democracy? Oh yeah – read on…

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 22 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #11840
    insomniac
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1453

    So, you think New Labour puts the interests of ithe Britsh people first and foremost eh! Read this from Daniel Hannan in today’s Sunday Telegraph and weep, ‘cos David Cameron sure hasn’t got the balls to rectify things were he to become the next PM…

    Lord Mandelson is destroying Labour for the sake of the EU. He is determined to prop up Gordon Brown until after the Irish referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, whatever the cost to his party.
    See how they operate, these Euro-zealots. They are like Richard Dawkins’s selfish genes, not caring what happens to their host organisms once they have served their purpose.
    This might strike you as a curious way to talk about the Business Secretary. After all, we keep reading that Mandy is a Labour man to his backbone, that the one fixed point on his whirling moral compass is dedication to the party. But his first allegiance, these days, is to Brussels. There is no other way to explain his behaviour over the past month.
    No one can doubt that Mandelson kept Gordon Brown in office. When James Purnell walked out of the Cabinet on the day of the European elections, everything looked lost. Then Mandy hit the telephones, hectoring, threatening, schmoozing, cajoling. Say what you like about him, he hasn’t lost his touch: he turned the Cabinet around. Brown was wedged in place, like one of those pickled Soviet leaders.
    Why did he do it? You don’t have to be a spin doctor to see what Gordon Brown is doing to his party’s popularity. He has taken Labour to a share of the popular vote it has not registered since before universal male suffrage, when it was a tiny band of trade-union-sponsored candidates. Anyone – anyone – would make a more electable leader, even Michael Foot, if the old boy could be persuaded to come out of retirement.
    True, the new PM would have to call a general election and the chances are that he would lose it. But at least Labour would avoid extirpation. By hanging on, the party is repeating the mistake of John Major’s Tories in the mid-1990s, trying the patience of an angry electorate, purchasing each day now at the cost of a week in eventual Opposition.
    The best course for Labour MPs would be to despatch their leader with the cold efficiency of so many abattoir workers, replace him with someone presentable, hope for a honeymoon and flatter the electorate with an early poll. Mandy, of all people, knows this perfectly well. So what the devil is he playing at? Viewed from the Westminster lobby, it seems an impenetrable mystery. From the perspective of Brussels, though, the answer is obvious. European Commissioners are obsessed with the need to keep David Cameron at bay until the Lisbon Treaty is ratified.
    You see, the Conservative leader has promised a referendum on Lisbon – and, unlike the other two party leaders, he means it. He has even instructed his lawyers to draw up the Bill in advance, so that he could introduce it on his first day in office. Eurocrats are understandably determined to keep the Tory leader out until after the second Irish referendum in October. (There is a universal, if somewhat insulting, assumption in Brussels that the Irish will roll over this time.) Mandelson is their agent, their man in Westminster.
    He may be a Minister of the Crown these days, but his heart is plainly in his last job. He likes to boast of his proximity to EU leaders, and recently floated the idea that Britain might join the euro. If keeping Lisbon on track means condemning his grandfather’s party, he will do the necessary.
    If my theory strikes you as fanciful, recall Mandelson’s interview in The Daily Telegraph last week, in which he spoke of the likelihood of a new challenge to Gordon Brown in the autumn. Why, having seen the rebels off a few weeks ago, should he positively invite them to have another go after the recess? Because it won’t matter by then. The Euro-constitution will be in force.
    Euro-fanatical LibDems have made the same calculation. They want an early election, they say, but not quite yet: October would do nicely, thank you. Shirley Williams justified this piece of sophistry by arguing that a snap poll would inevitably be about parliamentary expenses. Well yes, Shirley, that would be rather its point. The House of Commons has been through the hubris and the nemesis, but the catharsis has been artificially stayed. No serious overhaul is possible until Parliament has a fresh mandate.
    The trouble is, this doesn’t fit with Brussels’ plans. You see how the EU, as well as being undemocratic in its own structures, serves to vitiate democracy within its member states. British voters must be denied their general election so that Eurocrats can have their treaty.
    It’s an awesome phenomenon, this readiness of national politicians to place the EU’s interests before their own. Think of John Major breaking his party over Maastricht. Think of Gordon Brown, who had been determined to present himself as an honest leader after years of Blairite spin, having to start by pretending that Lisbon was different from the European Constitution, the smoke billowing from his pants as he kept woodenly repeating the claim. Think of Nick Clegg, who had so wanted to make a good first impression, taking three opposed positions on the referendum in order to ensure that Lisbon went through.
    Think of Bertie Ahern resigning as Ireland’s Taoiseach so that the sleaze allegations levelled against him shouldn’t prejudice the “Yes” campaign. Think of Belgium, which had been without a government since its election, cobbling together a ministry for a couple of weeks in order to ratify the treaty whereupon, job done, it went back to dissolving.
    Herein lies what C S Lewis would have called the EU’s hideous strength, its ability to make otherwise good people behave badly. The lack of democracy intrinsic in Brussels – the way it is run by unelected functionaries, the way it swats aside referendum results – has spilt over into its constituent nations. In order to make an undemocratic system work, they too must become less democratic
    The proof is before our eyes. Our system needs, and our electorate demands, an early election. Yet we must be denied one for the sake of a treaty that three other countries have already rejected in referendums. How cheap our Parliament has become. How diminished our nation.
    Daniel Hannan is a Conservative MEP for South East England

    #235759
    dave jay
    Member
    • Total Posts 3386

    .. that’s a very good piece .. basically because it is true.

    Mandy wants to do a Kinnock .. Kinnocj got £300K a year for him, his missus and his boy, not bad work if you can get it. Of course Mandy has been sacked once already for thieving, the EU would have been like a homecoming for him .. the Thieves Guild, as some people call it.

    The Tories have promised us a referendum and have no intention of giving us one. People in this country don’t want to be in the EU .. so don’t moan when we have parties like the BNP and UKIP getting people elected to the EU thingy, it’s only going to get worse. We are betrayed by our own people and everybody knows it. Strange things happen when you turn your back on the democratic process.

    The only honest pro-EU party in this country are the Liberals and they only got 16% of the vote in the last elections .. hardly a Pro-European mandate is it?

    You would think that Germans would have learned from the last war that European domination isn’t going to work for them, even if they have stopped gassing Jews and dressing up in uniforms. Most of these european countries are merely third world back waters masquerading as legitimate states because they have got internet access and are getting to vote for the first time in a free election. No other European country has ever functioned as a proper democracy for more then 50 years except the UK. These new democracies are just transferring over to a new undemocratic system because they can’t cope with freedom.

    In this country we still face the unacceptable face of European totalitarianism that we fought against in the last war.

    #235861
    clivexx
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2158

    ****** hell :shock:

    #238324
    Roddy Owen
    Participant
    • Total Posts 441

    Or it could be the reason we haven`t had a Major European war in the last fifty years is because of the EU

    #238328
    graysonscolumn
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6964

    Or it could be the reason we haven`t had a Major European war in the last fifty years is because of the EU

    (NAP)

    gc

    The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.

    #238342
    insomniac
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1453

    Per Roddy Owen…

    Or it could be the reason we haven`t had a Major European war in the last fifty years is because of the EU

    Oh dear Roddy, how easily you swallow that naive propaganda pill. Don’t you think that er, NATO (do you know what that is?) had a greater influence on "peace" in Western Europe than the EU?
    Do you honestly believe that France and Germany didn’t kick the sh1T out of one another again since 1945 because of the EU?
    I despair.
    The biggest threat to Western Europe post WWII was the USSR. How much of a dteterrent was the EU (Common Market) to them?. Laughable to even consider it. NATO and the USA were Western Europe’s safeguard. Don’t believe the propaganda; it’s scary to think that so many do so easily.

    #238383
    Seven Towers
    Participant
    • Total Posts 608

    insomniac, you copy and paste a tract from a Eurosceptic Tory MP’s website and criticise others for "swallowing a naive propaganda pill" for having the temerity to disagree with it. Which countries do you think make up NATO? (which you suggest was one of the bulwarks that prevented further Communist expansion.) Of the original 12 signatories of the 1949 treaty 8 of them are current EU members.

    #238406
    dave jay
    Member
    • Total Posts 3386

    Or it could be the reason we haven`t had a Major European war in the last fifty years is because of the EU

    Serbia not in Europe?

    Nato’s occupation of Germany is why there was no war in europe, nothing to do with the EU .. read your history old chum.

    #238415
    insomniac
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1453

    The od chestnut about "no war in Europe" since the inception of the Common Market is an old sore. It’s akin to saying that, since the introduction of McDonalds in Europe there has been no war, therefore McDonalds is the cause of European peace. Nonsense of course, but it has as much rigour to its argument as that about the EU.
    Seven Towers. The piece I cut and pasted is, as you say, copied from a Eurosceptics article. You, I assume, do not necessarily accept its argument as valid; quite rightly so. You are free to do so, and I similarly disagree with the assertion that the EU is the root of European peace since 1945.

    Whatever one thinks about the role of EU in European peace / Mandelson’s reasons for shoring Brown as PM. my concern is that, in the EU we are watching the rise of an organisation that hates democratic scrutiny. (The French, Danes (was it the Danes?) & Irish voted against the "original" constitution, but it’s been replaced with the Lisbon "treaty", merely to avoid further democratic scrutiny) Can that be a good thing?
    Was it democratic to side-step the concerns of the people who at least had a say? (Unlike the British)
    There are valid reasons for suporting the basic tenets of a pan-European marketing regime (maybe even a pan-Europen political regime), but my concern is that the pan-European regime we now find ourselves in is determined not to come under democratic scrutiny. You can believe in the EU, you can believe that it is the main cause of European peace and you can believe that it is a noble and uncorrupt organisation, but if you are also a democrat, you must surely have concern at the way the will of the people is by-passed to ensure the EU political elite get there way. It’s not a democracy; it’s the EUssr.
    Europhile or Europhobe, we should all be concerned at its disingenious way of ensuring the political elite get their way without the clear democratic mandate of the people.
    Unfortunatlely, David Cameron seems not to have the spine to say he’ll have a post-ratification referendum. I hope I’m wrong, but I rather think he’s another example of a Political player who doesn’t want to rock the cosy political elite. unaccountable gravy-train. We now have an uber-class of politicians and their placemen lapping up taxpayers’ dosh and gasping at the audacity some people have of daring to question the morality of their power and position.
    I’m at work now so can’t find a link to an article on Neil Kinnock’s original attempt to clear-up EU corruption. But, if you can find a piece on his attempts to reduce the numbers of chaffeurs the EU employs, it will be worth the trouble. Needless to say, he failed, and the firebrand Welsh reformer is now another EU lapdog supping at the teat of the European taxpayer and smiling all the way to his next pension statement.

    #238427
    Seven Towers
    Participant
    • Total Posts 608

    Hi insomniac, just being a pedant as usual! :D There are many things that I would agree with you on regarding the eu especially the obscene amount of money wasted by politicians and their lining of their own pockets. But as we’ve seen this has been endemic in British politics for decades so is not peculiar to the EU.
    I would agree that all EU countries should have referenda on EU membership before any further expansion, I think most countries would vote no, particularly the UK. For that reason I don’t think we’ll get one from Brown, Cameron or anyone else.

    #239448
    Ian
    Member
    • Total Posts 1415

    The UK is not a democracy.

    All three "main" parties virtually agree on all major issues. Where was the referendum on :

    Immigration
    Death Penalty
    Europe

    etc

    There hasn’t been one of course – that is not democratic, we’re all just being railroaded down the path these corrupt politicians want to take us down i.e. an eventual European state which will become an Islamic state.

    These are very dangerous times for the freedom we now take for granted.

    #239473
    insomniac
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1453

    Hear hear Ian, and our politicians wonder why voters turn to the likes of the BNP!

    #239517
    Steerforth
    Member
    • Total Posts 122

    Yeah let’s have government by referenda. It’ll be like Big Brother, get in!

    :roll:

    #239600
    moehat
    Participant
    • Total Posts 8373

    Why do we need a referendum on the death penalty? Quite frankly I could have nightmares thinking about how life would be under the new Utopia that is the BNP.

    .

    #239644
    Ian
    Member
    • Total Posts 1415

    Why do we need a referendum on the death penalty? Quite frankly I could have nightmares thinking about how life would be under the new Utopia that is the BNP.

    .

    That is probably because of the constant left wing persecution most of which have been proven to be lies. Only this week one lie was refuted live on BBC 1’s Andrew Marrs show and the Sun newspaper were forced to retract yet another lie. Don’t forget the media in this country like everything is under strong Labour influence as Labour run the country.

    Winston Churchill said that fascism would return under the guise of anti fascism how right he was when you get groups like UAF using violence in demonstrations yet this group have a signatory by the name of David Cameron (yes that one).

    What do you seriously think would happen under a BNP government? All blacks and Asians burned at the stake? Of course not. Its about time people started to see through the left wing disguise.

    By the way I’m no BNP member before I get accused of being one, nor am I a racist or a fascist.

    It will eventually come to a choice you either vote BNP or you effectively vote for Islamic law. Who would you rather live under BNP who are pro British / anti European or the law of Shariah? Its a no brainer for anyone that values freedom. Either way you will get the death penalty restored.

    Labour / Tory have no interest in anything other than forcing the UK into the EU fully and lining their own pockets. They will flea to their safe havens and leave the rest of us to it.

    Islamic Britain will never happen? What will happen when there are more of them than us, when they can democratically vote in whatever they like?

    Its about time people wised up to the biggest threat this country has faced sinced the second world war.

    #239645
    moehat
    Participant
    • Total Posts 8373

    Crikey; and there was me worried about swine flu! [which was, of course, created by the far left to subjugate the masses].

    #239657
    Seven Towers
    Participant
    • Total Posts 608

    Lawdy Ian. You claim that the media in this country is under strong Labour influence but at the last count as far as I can see of the 9 national dailies in the UK 6 of them are traditional Tory supporters, the Mirror and the Guardian are Labour and the Indy plough their own Ecowarrior furrow.
    Is 66% Tory supporting national newspapers not enough for you?
    You claim that it will come to a choice for voting for the BNP or Islamic Law. Do you not think there are enough right thinking people in the UK who would stop either happening? At the last European election around 900k people out of a population of 60 million voted for the BNP (admittedly not all 60 million are eligible to vote.) Do you know that the BNP have struggled to field candidates in the past because by their own admission so many of their supporters have convictions for serious criminal offences which bar them from standing?
    Do you know how many muslims live in this country Ian? It is estimated to be around 3% or less. In your view how long will it take for Muslims to take over this country and impose sharia law either by democratic or military means? How will they achieve this in the face of opposition from the 97% of the population who are not Muslim??

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 22 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.