- This topic has 184 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Good posts.
Thank goodness Tony Benn has spoken up…who’d have thought he and I would ever agree on something…but surprisingly I often do.
Yes I agree that the thread did go off topic as it were, but I was pushed to defend a comment or two I made….which admittedly needed supporting.
However they ARE linked. This government believes they can MOULD people into perfect citizens, all sharing the same culture and morality whatever their colour etc. That is dangerous. So having a eugenics policy, banning smoking and hunting, and telling Moslems they must be more "westernised" if they live in Britain is all part of the same ideology. And; indeed it is IDENTICAL to the ideology of the Nazis; that is you cab "create" the perfect society by state interference and correcting deviant behaviour (including hunting and smoking!)
Watch out fat people; you are next.
This is all very very dangerous, and the way in which the Government has actually brought laws in "in the interests of public morality" (banning mink farming) which has never been used as a precedent in the UK before…and could be used as an excuse for any excessive government action….it needs repealling and declaring an illiegal Act); used the Parliament Act in banning hunting (against the spirit of constitution in times of non emergency); and watch EVERY financial transaction over £1000; monitor movements of every citizen and evesdrop constantly; threaten us with ID cards…….and use things like terrorism as an excuse. These are frightening things…I cannot beliecve nobody is concerned about the direction in which they are moving.<br>It is so akin to the principles of National Socialism especially when combined with alliance with big business. <br>Oh; you may say…they aren’t going to be able to have death squads like real fascists. Tell the Brazilian’s mother that. <br>And who kills themselves by slashing ONE wrist?<br>Big Blair is watching you
"Minority Report" around the corner……good job Art can warn you about stuff like this in advance eh:biggrin:
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 7:43 pm on Sep. 3, 2006)
Without spending 30mins reading this thread, I can tell you that the Blair govt is moving farther to the right with every passing day. I think Blair is delberately taking Camerons ground, and should be subject to a lengthy ban for dangerous party politics :biggrin:<br>All jokes aside, Blair is positioning his party in a rather precarious position between right-wing and totalitarian. That is not the Labour party that I want, and it certainly isn’t the Labour party that any Labour supporter wants.<br>Blair should go, before he tears his party to political shreds.
Interesting thread.
I was a lecturer in 1997 and remember vividly several of my colleagues on the verge of joyous tears when New Labour were elected.
Being more cynical, I wondered how long it would be before New became Old once more. Governments of a psuedo-socialist hue cannot help but interfere in the lives of the people they represent. They have agendas and at that time, most of them were hidden.
This new turn of events, screening unborn babies for likely dysfunctional tendencies and then intervening, is quite amazing. Think about it. In fact, the implications are frightening.
http://www.eugenics-watch.com/roots/chap05.html
Here’s a whistlestop to the Eugenics movement. There’s loads more. You might find research on the state government of West Virginia in 1920-24 enlightening, but in a nutshell, the governments of the West felt that sterilising the "enfeebled" was a progressive policy for the greater good of society. There aren’t many degrees of difference between the phrases "Greater Good" and "Social Inclusion".
GGD, I quite like your stuff. It’s a bit repetitive, (but that tends to be the modus operandi of a demagogue) and less sometimes means more, but I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. Funny too, on occasion. Just commenting, seeing as you make a big effort with your posts.
‘New’ was never like ‘old’. Not even at the beginning. It was always a tory flavored Labour party.<br>However, Blair is now getting WAYYY out there on a limb. He’s annoying the hell out of the country with his unwaivering transatlantic butt-kissing, and his authoritarian idea of what is best for us all. He knows what we need and gives it to us whether we want it or not. That isn’t a govt ‘for the people’, it is more like a govt that thinks it owns the people. I can tell you for nothing that the people will show New Labour what they think of that idea at the next election, and no amount of bribes will sway them. Not even a last minute switch to Gordon ‘tax them to death’ Brown will save them. Labour are finished.
I hope you are right.<br>What disturbs me most…is that the media and most observers have this wrong re the international scene.<br>It isn’y Blair kissing Bush’s butt….it is vice versa.<br>Bush thinks he is doing the right thing; I cannot get angry with him. It is hardly surprising after 9/11 ….but Blair could have stopped it. Instead he encouraged it.
Bush is a cowboy in a white hat and he could have been reined in by Blair easily. He was let loose by a man hell bent on giving himself power on the world stage by having a superpower under his influence. That is the only reason that Parliamnet was lied to re the WMDs.
And do not expect Brown to be any different. He is of the same Scottish " mafia ", and his methodism will ensure even more moral and social engineering.
Old Labour are corrupted . Finished. In any case they were always better biting at the heels of Tory excess in Parliamentary debate. They have turned a blind eye to these fascists to go along with having power when in truth they have less influence than when in opposition.
If you want the old Labour back I suggest you vote Tory next time….or we will be stuck with a party of social engineers financed by the AR movement , with fundamntal British liberties compromised, with ideas of forcing their values on the whole world by force if necessary. <br>The Moslem world will never accept that; and we have created an atmosphere of division in our own country that the rest of us are going to have to work hard for the rest of our lives to overcome.
The government and media have created division eveywhere and legitimised viloence and prejudice everywhere. It is now conseidered fair play to say that moslems should integrate more; to give abuse to anybody wearing a fur or foxhunting, to harras Jewish people (it is white people doing this not moslems) because of the situation in the Lebanon and Palestine;<br>to  criticise people from Eastern Europe ;to demonise and vilfy smokers; to attack anybody who doesn’t conform, looks or act different. The Police even TELL you that it is your own fault if you are attacked because you stand out too much…they have victim liason officers who ask you what you were wearing…crazy. Booze fuelled hatred is on the streets every night and when you have a Government and media giving people an excuse to turn on minorities, it is very dangerous. That is how things kick off in totalitarian states.
We have a lowest common denominator media , which cannot question because they are idle, ignorant, or controlled by the groups with most advertising power…how the hell do PETA and the RSPCA get quoted on everything when they kill so many animals ? <br>It is sick. The supermarkets dominate the food industry to the detriment of farmers and real conservation issues like them buying fish from illegal foreign fleets to keep fish prices artificailly low get igmored…yet NO newspaper will have a go at them for it because of their advertising budget.<br>The pop world have become the hypocritical priesthood <br>of morality with McCartney lecturing the Inuit and Geldof telling us the answers to African poverty when I wouldn’t even let him run an allotment. Meanwhile the wilderness gets raped for non renewable resources, far more marine mammlas die form oil spills to fuel our greed<br>than any hunting, and intensive crops like palm oil are wiping out species like wildfire. Pharmacutical giants and the medical profession blame everything on smoking so they can make fortunes from anti smoking products, and try to abdicate responsibility for health care and cure despite the fact that the tax balance is £6 billion in profit from smoking v smoking related disease.
But everything is okay say old Labour backbenchers because we have banned foxhunting.
This is about dumbing people down, making them conform, making them model citizens who do not question…. and eradicating difference and dissent through witch hunts if necessary. It is about keeping the maases dumb with poor education and even poorer entertainment: it is the age of Big Brother except we watch it as those in control smugly control us in a far more subtle and dangerous way.It is about everyone being employed by the state or in the service industries <br>and small entrepreneurs crushed by unfair competition because they are not major employers. Look at every high street in the UK…they are cloned….just like the people who fill them zombie like accepting poorer and poorer quality to satisfy a need for shareholders to have increased return on investments that masks a lie of cultural , social and commercial decay propped up by absurdly high property prices and supporting a bureaucratic, political, and global grey suited elite and the Lords Of The New Church the popular culture aristocracy. The rich have got richer (especially the New Labour politicians and  business supporters and media luvvies)<br>and the poor are hocked up to their eye balls in credit card debt just to pay utility bills from companies that any real socialist would have renationalised….they are the only things the state SHOULD interfere with.<br>If you have seen George Romero’s latest zombie movie you will realise that it is a parody of this. The zombies have changed…they wander around mimicking what they used to do as human beings.
<br>Emperor Blair is wearing no clothes and neither are any of his supporters.
The fundamental difference between Labour and Tory is a question of how much power the state has over people. The Government should fear people; not vice versa.<br>Get over Thatcher; the enemy is now not 30 years ago.
I may be repetitive, and yes I exagerate to make humour<br>…but I am no demagagogue…I do not want power over anyone…and I haven’t got all the answers…but I sure know the kind of questions we should ALL be asking.
I think that Bush has a naive way of looking at world affairs and beleives the USA to be doing the right thing for the middle east. <br>Blair however has a far more sophisticated understanding<br>so why did he go along with it?
Mind you, not that sophisticated…. much informed opinion advised that it was a no win situtaion.
It is like Afganhistan now. They have produced a record poppy harvest, and the British Army do not want to engage in that. If they do it will be disastrous.
The solution is simple but requires a realistic not moralistic assesment. The west must BUY the whole crop. Every year. It is NOT the Afghan peoples fault that <br>poppies cause problems re heroin. It is our fault; and our fault that they grow them in the first place.
The crop could be used for pharmacutical use, and the rest destroyed. End if heroin problem in the west.
We should also encourage and help them re their second major export…which we also condemn with our simplistic morality….Karakul. The AR movement and idiot media have interfered with a major part of the Afgahan economy again with stupid ideas. Significant however that about 60 fashion designers have used it in collections this year. <br>To the Afghans they couldn’t give a damn about democracy as long as they can sell their stuff. They were better off under the Russians because at least they bought Karakul, is the current view, and we are sitting on a time bomb there.
This attitude that people must adapt to change is moral imperialism and nearly EVERY change away from traditional economies have been ecologically disastrous.<br>It is rooted in Thatherism admitedly; the idea that people are economic units and must adapt to change when their product is not required any more. Well it was wrong …and even more wrong to apply it to poor nations.
Again to apply morality to the situation is misguided.
Back to the Blair Bush thing……why do you say it is a tosh assesment?
Do you really think that 9/11 wasn’t going to result in reprisals? It is an eintirely understandable gut reaction from the worlds most powerful military power. Blair has Bush’s ear. But instead tried to ride on his back for his ego and own agenda on the world affairs stage.
That is not someone who is doing something for the right reasons.
So what I am saying is that I can understand Bush but not Blair.
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 2:09 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)
Wait and see..Blair has HAD to change his view on the Lebanon…and my feeling is that Bush will listen.
What is significant though was Blair only listened to his<br>ambassador at the last minute. ÂÂÂ
Only Blair can prevent Bush strihing at Iran in the future too. <br>The one thing is…Blair CAN do it if he wants. OMG the thought of Gordon Brown in that situation….
It is like being in a pub and there is a bit of kerfuffle. You have a big strong mate who is not very bright but is honest and ready to give some bad gut a whacking. <br>Blair would be the one saying:<br>"go on, go on…do it…whack him."
For a moment the weak spineless coward has control of the whole pub, because his mate trusts him.
The French would be saying "eh mes amies…non non  non, q’est ce que c’est, le problem?"
Putin is the one that watches and waits then finally comes up with the overview that may not be morally right but is realistic….he talks to the friends of the people causing the trouble.<br>His comments to Bush and Blair about democracy in Iraq /Russia were priceless.
One thing for sure is we must NEVER talk to al queada,<br>as is being suggested by labour backbenchers and media luvvies. ÂÂÂ
But we must talk to Syria. They are the key ….Putin is the man who can bring peace to the whole region, and Blair could have told Bush that from day one. The bathists there may not be the nicest of people…but they have an uncanny ability to bring stability. I posted on another forum that there would be war in the Lebanon and Isreal within a year of Syria puling out…and yet the idiots in the western media and democracies encouraged it.
Democracy will only lead to more conflict , and the chaos that al quaeda and warlords seek, and inevitably fundamentalism.
Democracy is a washed up concept. It is for us…not the rest of the world.  And even then when it threatens minotities (smokers, rural people, moslems) with prejudiced law it undermines itself.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch. It may work.<br>But do not try to invite the cougar the bear and the horse and the rhino to the same dinner party because they will not have it;  and never even talk to the bot fly …but you must let the horses tail swat him.<br>
Quote: from GreenGreenDesert on 8:47 pm on Sep. 2, 2006[br]I want a Tory government
I repeat….
Roll Up, Roll Up…
Get your Daily Mail here :cool:
I would not suggest otherwise.
I think your view of Bush as an evil tryrant is just as naive. <br>Blair has an agenda in all this that is purely to do with his own ego, and the system of morality of his ideology<br>being enforced the world over. <br>I have no distatse for the French..whatever gave you that idea? You are reading something into my post that is not there.<br>Democracy can PRODUCE dictatorships…Hitler came from one of the best democracies the world has seen…the Wiemar republic.
The Arabs…or people in Africa etc…will never accept democracy…because it means that the largest group will opress the smaller ones.
They will also wonder why the West wont let them grow poppies, forwns on karakul and will go to war to stop them having nuclear power.<br>If we try to understand the other point of view and realise why there are problems then we can get to grips with them. Blair does have the influence to do that with the USA….because otherwise they are alone.
Al Queada are very real. Do not understimate that or the vast amount of moslems that will fight for a cause that pretends to support them. ÂÂÂ
Iraq must be divided or return to dictatorship. It is that simple. The best alternative is for it to be an ally of Iran.
Sometimes you cannot rule the world with good intentions especially when these are misunderstood .<br>Bush is frightened of something he genuinely believes is evil…but his actions have made the threat more real, and the moddle East a time bomb. If you think it is bad now just wait and see how worse it gets if we do not change the policy. We are seen as Crusaders and easy to see why….our being there diverts attention from the real problems in those countries , and makes our troops sitting ducks. A military force will always fail to keep the peace. It does not work to fight a war with one hand tied behind your back by politicians. <br>What was unbeleivably naive is that Blair and Bush thought the war was over when the statues of Saddam came down.
You can never negotiate with terrorists was what I meant.
I agree with your statement that  special interest groups are controlling democracy. That is why fundamantal Christians are corrupting republicanism in the US and animal rights are corrupting Labour. I also agree that the vast majority of us let it happen.
Yes I agree that our foreign policy has been wrong. That is what I am saying. But it is one…us and the US…that is encouraged to make a world wide market place for economic trade in things that we want. The Moslem world fear it. We have to stop exporting a thin veil of moral codes we think should be common to all yet produce situations like Somalia and Iraq and Afghanistan.
The thought of Bush being removed from office is frightening if it means The Kerry/Heinz form of Democrats, who have a very shadowy agenda of moral and economic imperialism themselves.
Putin is an opportunist and realist and has no ideological agenda. Therefore I trust him. We must talk to Syria…and so must the Isrealis which is the stumbling block. The two of them plus Egypt are stabilising influences, and no great natural allies of Iran.<br>Syria and other Arab nations must talk to Iran , but at the moment Moslems the world over just think…why is it okay for the west and Isreal to have nuclear energy but not us? Answer that.<br>And how simple would that be for Blair to explain to Bush? I agree he may not take any notice, but it must be pur and Blair makes no attempt to do that.
Ass licker or master , Blair has been the problem….not Bush. The anlogy of calming down an angry friend is not a bad one.<br>Time and time again Bush uses us as a justification of the war on terror as "allies". His assesment of the situation is naive but well intentioned. Blair MUST know its wrong but elevates his standing to go along with it…and I think encourage it.
We have to start questioning the validity of democracy in other nations.
An Afghan farmer with a poppy crop , and his neighnour with a thousand dead lamb pelts doesn’t give a f*** about the government and neither do the warlords who have come to power on defending…and indeed exploiting… them. They can grow poppies and rear sheep with high infant mortality. They have nothing else.<br>We have to buy their produce again as we always did when the region was famed for it …indeed we fought over it. But no no no that is unacceptable now.
An Iranian who sees a rich and corrupt west with real WMDs at their disposal who has bombed and invaded his neighbour will support anyone who will stand up for them too.
And the whole moslem world will resist if we continue with the Crusade for democratic values which they do not see as important.
And we need to stop analysing world affairs with the model that we have.<br>Remember when people here…press especially…supported the Chechen rebels and the Afghan rebels aginst the Russians? The Russians told us we were bonkers. They were right. But no we had to see them as freedom fighters. We brought all this on ourselves.<br>The majority of Chechens want to stay with Russia now, and we supported a terror which we assumed to be fighting communism when it was doing nothing of the sort. We begat al quada and the Taleban and that is just as much our fault as Bush’s. Greater because we should have known better…the US has no experience in these areas. Russia and France work with these nations, and the threat of an overland oil pipeleine system was just as much a threat to our island economy as the US. Stop trying to pretend we are not willing partners in this, and that makes us worse because we ought to know better.
<br>(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 9:26 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)<br>
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 9:35 pm on Sep. 5, 2006)
Mostly agreeing…except that I still do not think Bush is calling the shots and that remember it was our security services that much of the CIA’s info was based on. They are seriously crap….they are cowboys and do not know what is going on.<br>What motivated Blair to lie?<br>Why is the only person who could tell us that dead?
Belezebub himself IS waiting….the prospect of the Tides Foundation ruling the world is terrifying, and even more closely allied to Blair than the Republicans.
We have to stop using the idea of left and right…they do not exist any more. Except in Venezuela and Nepal.
Sailing Shoes….You will not find any of the things I have said in the Daily Mail…they SUPPORTED the Chechen and Afghan rebels remember? And as I remember they also got pretty fired up about Madonna wearing Karakul.
This left and right thing is as false as al Quaeda. We have a Labour party who is so right wing they are almost fascist, yet propogate the politik of envy. Then you have a right wing America who instead of being liberallly conservative, are religiously bigoted. It is all mixed up because things have changed.
But check out the Tides Foundation for the alternative to Bush. Better the devil you know:
Vera Heinz is Kerry’s wife. I cannot think of a more global industry than Heinz, or one who has done more damage through encouraging intensive agriculture and mass cheap marketing of food. If we had them in power ….well…I suggest you watch Soylent Green. More social engineers. California Uber Alles.
No…give me the cowboy any time. <br>Just stop him listening to the Preacher.<br>
The squirrel works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building<br>>and improving his house and laying up supplies for the winter.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the<br>>summer away.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Come winter, the squirrel is warm and well fed.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The shivering grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the<br>>cold.<br>><br>><br>>THE END<br>><br>> THE BRITISH VERSION:<br>><br>><br>><br>>The squirrel works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building<br>>his house and laying up supplies for the winter.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the<br>>summer away.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Come winter, the squirrel is warm and well fed.<br>><br>><br>><br>>A social worker finds the shivering grasshopper, calls a press<br>>conference and demands to know why the squirrel should be allowed to be<br>>warm and well fed while others less fortunate, like the grasshopper, are<br>>cold and starving.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The BBC shows up to provide live coverage of the shivering grasshopper;<br>>with cuts to a video of the squirrel in his comfortable warm home with a<br>>table laden with food.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The British press inform people that they should be ashamed that in a<br>>country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so<br>>while others have plenty.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The Labour Party, Greenpeace, Animal Rights and The Grasshopper Council<br>>of GB demonstrate in front of the squirrel’s house.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The BBC, interrupting a cultural festival special from Notting Hill<br>>with breaking news, broadcasts a multi cultural choir singing "We Shall<br>>Overcome".<br>><br>><br>><br>>Ken Livingstone rants in an interview with Trevor McDonald that the<br>>squirrel has gotten rich off the backs of grasshoppers, and calls for an<br>>immediate tax hike on the squirrel to make him pay his "fair share" and<br>>increases the charge for squirrels to enter inner London.<br>><br>><br>><br>>In response to pressure from the media, the Government drafts the<br>>Economic Equity and Grasshopper Anti Discrimination Act, retroactive to<br>>the beginning of the summer.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The squirrel’s taxes are reassessed. He is taken to court and fined for<br>>failing to hire grasshoppers as builders for the work he was doing on<br>>his home and an additional fine for contempt when he told the court the<br>>grasshopper did not want to work.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The grasshopper is provided with a council house, financial aid to<br>>furnish it and an account with a local taxi firm to ensure he can be<br>>socially mobile.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The squirrels’ food is seized and re distributed to the more needy<br>>members of society, in this case the grasshopper.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Without enough money to buy more food, to pay the fine and his newly<br>>imposed retroactive taxes, the squirrel has to downsize and start<br>>building a new home.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The local authority takes over his old home and utilises it as a<br>>temporary home for asylum seeking cats who had hijacked a plane to get<br>>to Britain as they had to share their country of origin with mice. On<br>>arrival, they tried to blow up the airport because of Britain’s apparent<br>>love of dogs.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The cats had been arrested for the international offence of hijacking<br>>and attempted bombing but were immediately released because the police<br>>fed them pilchards instead of salmon whilst in custody.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Initial moves to then return them to their own country were abandoned<br>>because it was feared they would face death by the mice.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The cats devise and start a scam to obtain money from peoples credit<br>>cards.<br>><br>><br>><br>>A Panorama special shows the grasshopper finishing up the last of the<br>>squirrels food, though spring is still months away, while the council<br>>house he is in, crumbles around him because he hasn’t bothered to<br>>maintain the house. He is shown to be taking drugs.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Inadequate government funding is blamed for the grasshoppers’ drug<br>>’illness’.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The cats seek recompense in the British courts for their treatment<br>>since arrival in UK.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The grasshopper gets arrested for stabbing an old dog during<br>> a burglary<br>>to get money for his drugs habit. He is imprisoned but released<br>>immediately because he has been in custody for a few weeks.<br>><br>><br>><br>>He is placed in the care of the probation service to monitor and<br>>supervise him. Within a few weeks he has killed a guinea pig in a<br>>botched robbery.<br>><br>><br>><br>>A commission of enquiry, that will eventually cost £10,000,000 and<br>>state the obvious, is set up.<br>><br>><br>><br>>Additional money is put into funding a drug rehabilitation scheme for<br>>grasshoppers and legal aid for lawyers representing asylum seekers is<br>>increased. The asylum seeking cats are praised by the government for<br>>enriching Britain’s multicultural diversity and dogs are criticised by<br>>the government for failing to befriend the cats.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The grasshopper dies of a drug overdose. The usual sections of the<br>>press blame it on the obvious failure of government to address the root<br>>causes of despair arising from social inequity and his traumatic<br>>experience of prison. They call for the resignation of a minister.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The cats are paid a million pounds each because their rights were<br>>infringed when the government failed to inform them there were mice in<br>>the United Kingdom.<br>><br>><br>><br>>The squirrel, the dogs and the victims of the hijacking, the bombing,<br>>the burglaries and robberies have to pay an additional percentage on<br>>their credit cards to cover losses, their taxes are increased to pay for<br>>law and order and they are told that they will have to work beyond 65<br>>because of a shortfall in government funds.<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>>THE END.<br>><br>><br>>
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
:cool: I was in hysterics when I read it and knew exactly where to post it!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.