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I’ve met David Hayes several times from his days in HK and respect him as a trainer but based on that quote he’s clueless re: Frankel. If he says that he hasn’t heard of the horses Frankel is beating then then his opinion is worth nothing.
Frankel made a mess out of Canford Cliffs (possibly not at his best admittedly) and Excelebration. Those two would be superstar milers in any other year. Both of those are better than Goldikova who’s respected around the world (CC through Ascot, Excelebration through collateral form). Drop that name and David Hayes will understand.
AIC, there’s no doubt that the best European middle-distance/staying horses are stronger. Americain, Dunaden and Red Cadeaux have strong opposition in Europe but stand out in Australasia. Yes, Americain always races well in Australia (and is inconsistent in Europe) but he’s run to form a few times in Europe as well; we know that he isn’t imperious there like he is down under. So You Think was invincible in Australia, Bart Cummings called him the best horse he’s ever trained, etc. I believe Aidan hasn’t done a good job with him & that he’s a better horse than his European record suggests but the difference in level of competition is clear.
We don’t have direct formlines for milers like we do for sprinters + stayers, but we have some form from Hong Kong and Japan which seem to give the Europeans the edge. Many horses clearly aren’t themselves during those raids so let’s focus on those who ran to form.
G2 & G3 Europeans like Sahpresa, Cityscape, Dubawi Gold, Spirito Del Vento, and Creachadoir have all gone close and shown themselves to be top class quality relative to Asian milers, capable of beating all but Asian superstars like Good Ba Ba.
Australian milers don’t travel much and many who do don’t run to form. One recent exception is Dao Dao, narrow 3rd in 2009 on a softish Sha Tin track. The principal chances didn’t fire in the wet that day, and its considered one of the weakest HK international miles ever. If Dao Dao ran to form as connections suggested, and even assuming the race was top class (which is VERY generous), that would place Dao Dao at the level of Cityscape, Sahpresa, etc. suggesting that best Europeans are superior.
To further support Dao Dao’s position, he was trained in HK prior to his move down under. While he was still rising through the ranks when he moved he wasn’t expected to be a star. In general I think Asian (neutral) form-readers would say the best European milers are generally better especially during this boom time of Frankel and Excelebration.
AIC that is not true steroids are used legally in pre training in the usa and oz and are totally banned in uk under the circumstances it would not be a fair fight
Can you outline exactly what you mean by this?
Horses here must be presented on race day drug free I assume you aren’t disputing that. That means any traces of banned substances (obviously includes steroids) if there are any traces found (extremely rare) the horse is stood down and then the enquiry starts.
If you are referring to treatment creams or medications for minor ailments I guess they may be in use behind closed doors but I’d be staggered if that wasn’t the case in England too. If you are insinuating our horses are on courses of steroids as part of their upbringing then you are wrong that sort of thing is not allowed here any more than it is in the UK.
We don’t have direct formlines for milers like we do for sprinters + stayers, but we have some form from Hong Kong and Japan which seem to give the Europeans the edge. Many horses clearly aren’t themselves during those raids so let’s focus on those who ran to form.
G2 & G3 Europeans like Sahpresa, Cityscape, Dubawi Gold, Spirito Del Vento, and Creachadoir have all gone close and shown themselves to be top class quality relative to Asian milers, capable of beating all but Asian superstars like Good Ba Ba.
Australian milers don’t travel much and many who do don’t run to form. One recent exception is Dao Dao, narrow 3rd in 2009 on a softish Sha Tin track. The principal chances didn’t fire in the wet that day, and its considered one of the weakest HK international miles ever. If Dao Dao ran to form as connections suggested, and even assuming the race was top class (which is VERY generous), that would place Dao Dao at the level of Cityscape, Sahpresa, etc. suggesting that best Europeans are superior.
To further support Dao Dao’s position, he was trained in HK prior to his move down under. While he was still rising through the ranks when he moved he wasn’t expected to be a star. In general I think Asian (neutral) form-readers would say the best European milers are generally better especially during this boom time of Frankel and Excelebration.
Dao dao was a very nice horse I’d love to have owned him but where has anyone suggested he was an elite class Aussie miler?
I’ve met David Hayes several times from his days in HK and respect him as a trainer but based on that quote he’s clueless re: Frankel. If he says that he hasn’t heard of the horses Frankel is beating then then his opinion is worth nothing.
Frankel made a mess out of Canford Cliffs (possibly not at his best admittedly) and Excelebration. Those two would be superstar milers in any other year. Both of those are better than Goldikova who’s respected around the world (CC through Ascot, Excelebration through collateral form). Drop that name and David Hayes will understand.
AIC, there’s no doubt that the best European middle-distance/staying horses are stronger. Americain, Dunaden and Red Cadeaux have strong opposition in Europe but stand out in Australasia. Yes, Americain always races well in Australia (and is inconsistent in Europe) but he’s run to form a few times in Europe as well; we know that he isn’t imperious there like he is down under. So You Think was invincible in Australia, Bart Cummings called him the best horse he’s ever trained, etc. I believe Aidan hasn’t done a good job with him & that he’s a better horse than his European record suggests but the difference in level of competition is clear.
Hayes wasn’t bagging Frankel. He agreed Frankel was a sensational galloper. It was a racing review show on TVN last Sunday and the context of the discussion was around the quality of who each horse had been beating, that some UK-based scribes had mentioned they hadn’t heard of a lot of BC’s opposition and Hayes was just saying he’d seen Frankel and hadn’t heard of some of his opposition either. My impression is he was just saying that it meant nothing and in saying you hadn’t heard of the oppoisition it detracted nothing from the quality of each galloper.
As for quality of the race, I find it absurdly arrogant that you guys assume your mile/middle distance/and staying races are all better quality than Aussie racing, but you also think your sprint racing is comparable too! If you merged the lightning field with the kings stand and could somehow eliminate travel issues I’m confident our last placegetter would beat home yours by many many lengths.
You know what i find arrogant? Coming onto a British based horse racing forum with the sole intent on spreading the message of how great Australian horse racing is and we overrate European horse racing.
17star I’m sure most people on here would welcome some level of input from us Aussies in a thread that is discussing an Australian galloper!
AIC, I commend your enthusiasm for all things Australian but you need to take a step back and view things objectively.
I think we all agree that Australia houses the best sprinters in the world – Black Caviar being the number one. No debate there.
You however, have to accept that the best 8f – 12f horses in the world are trained in GB, Ireland and France. Australia just doesn’t come close in that department.
A quick glance at the current International Classifications, which gives a list of all the top rated racehorses worldwide, tells us all we need to know.
Apart from sprinters, Black Caviar (2nd), Sepoy (jt 17th) and Hay List ( jt 23rd ), the top rated Australian trained middle distance horse is Atlantic Jewel ( now with Coolmore ), listed at joint 38.
In fact, of all the officially top-rated racehorses in the world in the past 8 years, none have been Australian trained. Incidentally, three have been American trained horses, before you start on about European bias.
So yes, Australia produces the best sprinters. We, however, produce ( without question ) the best milers and middle distance horses.
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AIC, I commend your enthusiasm for all things Australian but you need to take a step back and view things objectively.
I think we all agree that Australia houses the best sprinters in the world – Black Caviar being the number one. No debate there.
You however, have to accept that the best 8f – 12f horses in the world are trained in GB, Ireland and France. Australia just doesn’t come close in that department.
A quick glance at the current International Classifications, which gives a list of all the top rated racehorses worldwide, tells us all we need to know.
Apart from sprinters, Black Caviar (2nd), Sepoy (jt 17th) and Hay List ( jt 23rd ), the top rated Australian trained middle distance horse is Atlantic Jewel ( now with Coolmore ), listed at joint 38.
In fact, of all the officially top-rated racehorses in the world in the past 8 years, none have been Australian trained. Incidentally, three have been American trained horses, before you start on about European bias.
So yes, Australia produces the best sprinters. We, however, produce ( without question ) the best milers and middle distance horses.
There is no doubt Euro stamina is superior to what is in Australia. We throw up the occasional real good middle distance horse like So You Think, Northerly, or Might and Power, but for the most part our middle distance horses are usually at a level similar to say a Starcraft or Elvstroem. When we get a world class stayer like Makybe Diva (who I’d rate superior to Americain based on what I’ve seen here) we tend to go overboard with the praise…….whereas despite what you hear us saying about Black Caviar I think generally speaking the opposite is probably true for our sprinters.
You guys probably don’t rate a horse like Rain Affair (have you even heard of him?) but I’d go so far as to say he could very well be as good as any sprinter you have in Europe.
I’ve got no problem admitting Euro stamina is the best. As for milers I think our best milers over the last 10 years would be more than competitive against anything from around the world over the same period. Lohnro was a superstar miler but no doubt you’d dismiss him as not being fit to lace Frankel’s boots…
not a fair fight as aussie and yank sprinters are trained on steroids banned for training in uk
Steroids are banned in every American racing jurisdiction. I’m not sure where you got your information.
Unfortunately it is likely that Frankel and Black Caviar will never meet on the racetrack. An unbeaten horse’s connections primary goal is to keep the horse’s record intact. Two unbeaten horses? One of them has to lose. Frankel also has the spectre of his future stud value hanging in the window.
If they do meet my money’s on Frankel in a sprint, Black Caviar in a route. That sounds counterintuitive, but while Frankel loses ground in the last 1/16, Black Caviar has yet to show signs of tiring.
You guys probably don’t rate a horse like Rain Affair (have you even heard of him?) but I’d go so far as to say he could very well be as good as any sprinter you have in Europe.
I’ve got no problem admitting Euro stamina is the best. As for milers I think our best milers over the last 10 years would be more than competitive against anything from around the world over the same period. Lohnro was a superstar miler but no doubt you’d dismiss him as not being fit to lace Frankel’s boots…
Yes, I have heard of Rain Affair; a horse who has enormous potential, and one sprinter, along with Sepoy, who may just give that old, unbeaten lady, something to think about in the future.
As for Lohnro: obviously he wasn’t fit to lace Frankel’s boots; or Excelebration’s, or Canford Cliff’s, or Goldikova’s … or indeed, any of Europe’s top milers in the past 40 years. That goes without saying.
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Robust debate to say the least. A lot of hyperbole being bandied about. Sounds like we are talking about Australia v England Test match at Lord’s. The way I see it re-Black Caviar v Frankel, it’s like comparing apples to oranges. Let’s all be honest (fair dinkum) about this. Both camps have different agendas. Frankel’s aim is the Eclipse against So You Think and I believe Black Caviar has the Diamond Jubilee and possibly the July Cup as the aim. Digressing for a moment. When both finish racing what chance when Frankel becomes a sire and Black Caviar goes to him? How much would that foal be worth????
She travels like silk and finishes hard held, yet she’s 18 races in and still never been sent a route. This has parallels with Zenyatta in that the millstone of the winning sequence crushed any ambition to thoroughly explore the true extent of the genius.
I’ve no doubt she is what’s said about her, so the Ascot jaunt will be no more than another dose of shooting fish in a barrel despite how it’s spun. Ultimately a shame for both mares.
Dao dao was a very nice horse I’d love to have owned him but where has anyone suggested he was an elite class Aussie miler?
He’s no superstar but was good enough to run the best in Oz (Whobegotyou, Typhoon Tracy) to 2 lengths or closer. There’s probably a larger gap between the Cityscapes/Sahpresas and Excelebration/Frankel and I think I might be generous to Dao Dao as well. Once again hard to draw comparisons between Aussie and European milers but general impression in Asia is that the best Europeans are the cream of the crop.
Of course Oz sprinters are a breed apart which should be applauded, with Star Witness (beaten 4L by a hard-held Black Caviar) showing himself to be as good as the best European sprinters. Black Caviar and Hay List (and maybe Sepoy) a dominant tag-team in the sprints while Frankel and Excelebration rule the mile division.
Miss Woodford im not trying to knock the yankee or aussie sprinters but if you think they are not pre-trained on nandrolone you are very much misinformed in the uk steroids are illegal therefore our sprinters don’t get any help and as such are very much at a disadvantage
Robust debate to say the least. A lot of hyperbole being bandied about. Sounds like we are talking about Australia v England Test match at Lord’s. The way I see it re-Black Caviar v Frankel, it’s like comparing apples to oranges. Let’s all be honest (fair dinkum) about this. Both camps have different agendas. Frankel’s aim is the Eclipse against So You Think and I believe Black Caviar has the Diamond Jubilee and possibly the July Cup as the aim. Digressing for a moment.
When both finish racing what chance when Frankel becomes a sire and Black Caviar goes to him? How much would that foal be worth????
I know the answer to this one
£320,000,000Think thats covers it
Himself,Lohnro won 11 Group 1’s he would have given your better horses a shake,he was a top class horse anywhere and our horses mile to 10f form there is impeccable,tell us the failures from Australian horses in England in this distance range!!!! Indocine you say a shame for both mares!!! They have up until now had 38 starts between them for 37 wins and a certainty beaten in the other!I really dont think the owners of each would have too many regrets.I think Frankel may get the 10f,but if it isn’t his forte and So You Think happened to be his conquerer, a lot of egg on the face then! He does have to prove he can run 10f as yet so nothing is a given.So before all the obvious quotes of Frankel will smash SYT remember one is as yet unproven at the trip.
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