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Oscar Whisky, Peddlers Cross, Menorah, Zarkandar or Rock On Ruby, some from Mullins and other Irish stables. Cracking race.
And you still have Hurricane, Darlan, Binocular, Grandouet, Countrywide Flame and others in the Champion.
So you’ve split the Champion Hurdle in two Mark, "others", what others? Only coming up with 4 really good 2 milers. You could get 4 really good 2 milers in the Christmas Hurdle at Kempton… As I said, a 2 1/2 mile Cheltenham Championship event runs a massive risk of three Grade 1 races with no more quality than any other Grade 1 in the calendar. It makes the races
far less competitive
.
They wondered whether Rock On Ruby would have the speed for a Champion last year. As you imply by putting him in the "new race" Mark; Rock On Ruby would NEVER have won a Champion Hurdle. People also said Overturn did not have the speed neccessary, so take the first 2 out of last year’s Champion… Now look at 2011. Peddlers Cross a fairly close 2nd to Hurricane Fly. And the others… Oscar Whisky 3rd, winner’s stable companion Thousand Stars 4th, Menorah 5th etc.
Do you really want to take the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th out of a Champion Hurdle and put them in another race Mark?
Over the so-called "inadequate" 2 miles – these "specialist 2m4f" horses were ONLY beaten by ONE rival!
Value Is EverythingI used to bang the drum for BB to return to fencing. Regarding his fencing frailties, I blogged last year that he could easily make 6 mistakes and still win a Gold Cup. Graham Cunningham took me to task for suggesting he’d be capable of doing that. Synchronised then won the GC – guess how many mistakes he made? yep, 6.
But I’ve accepted it now and just enjoy him lobbing along treating the hurdles with disdain (like Long Run he cannot/does not pick up his hind legs), even over hurdles.
No doubt in my mind he has the best engine of any NH staying horse that’s raced in recent years, including Kauto Star.
But these, I suppose, are easy opinions to have as they will never be tested.
Joe
Run the 2m4f championship events at Aintree (where suitable events already exist) or at the Cheltenham April meeting. This allows horses to compete in both the 2m and 2m4f (or 2m4f and 3m) events whilst improving the quality of both.
I was certainly in favour of a championship chase event over the intermediate distance at The Festival, and recent renewals suggest that it has done little, if any, harm to the Queen Mother and Gold Cup.
The range in trip between these events is a massive ten furlongs, and so many quality horses were competing in an event that was either on the sharp side or just too testing prior to the introduction of the Ryanir Chase.
The Gold Cup was perhaps considered too testing for Imperial Commander during the embryonic stages of his chasing career (a few failed attempts over three miles), but connections were no doubt buoyed after he stayed on well to land the Ryanair Chase in 2009 that another attempt at three miles was on the cards. If a horse can stay two miles-five around Cheltenham then why not try three miles on a less demanding track? Thus, he would have beaten Kauto Star in another stride at Haydock over three miles the following season and the Gold Cup was always the plan thereafter.
Riverside Theatre is another who may yet benefit after ‘graduating’ from the Ryanair Chase. A year older. A year stronger. Now he may be ready.
How can a horse add depth to a championship event if it is not running over the optimum trip? Would Black Caviar have added depth to the Prince Of Wales Stakes? Colour Vision to the Queen Anne?
A Ryanair Hurdle would not work. Whereas the Ryanair Chase offers, give or take a few yards, a perfect medium, a Ryanair Hurdle would be a mere three furlongs shorter than the World Hurdle.
The pool of top class chasers is evidently larger than that of hurdlers, so it can be argued that there just aren’t enough quality hurdlers to recommend three championship races, either.
Rather than introduce a ‘Ryanair Hurdle’, I have been of the opinion that the distance of the World Hurdle should be reduced to two miles-five.
The staying hurdle division has often been derided due its lack of competitiveness. Since the turn of the century Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Big Buck’s have won nine of the twelve renewals between them. I certainly think that a reduction in trip would introduce more quality and not necessarily detract from the Champion Hurdle.
The result would be a greater balance in quality between the two championship hurdle events.
Oscar Whisky, Peddlers Cross, Menorah, Zarkandar or Rock On Ruby, some from Mullins and other Irish stables. Cracking race.
And you still have Hurricane, Darlan, Binocular, Grandouet, Countrywide Flame and others in the Champion.
So you’ve split the Champion Hurdle in two Mark, "others", what others? Only coming up with 4 really good 2 milers. You could get 4 really good 2 milers in the Christmas Hurdle at Kempton… As I said, a 2 1/2 mile Cheltenham Championship event runs a massive risk of three Grade 1 races with no more quality than any other Grade 1 in the calendar. It makes the races
far less competitive
.
They wondered whether Rock On Ruby would have the speed for a Champion last year. As you imply by putting him in the "new race" Mark; Rock On Ruby would NEVER have won a Champion Hurdle. People also said Overturn did not have the speed neccessary, so take the first 2 out of last year’s Champion… Now look at 2011. Peddlers Cross a fairly close 2nd to Hurricane Fly. And the others… Oscar Whisky 3rd, winner’s stable companion Thousand Stars 4th, Menorah 5th etc.
Do you really want to take the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th out of a Champion Hurdle and put them in another race Mark?
Over the so-called "inadequate" 2 miles – these "specialist 2m4f" horses were ONLY beaten by ONE rival!
You’d still have two quality races. And horses like Peddlers Cross now need further but he’s not a chaser.
Daresay a few of the top weights in the Coral or Pertemps might try their hand in the race instead of lumping 158 ish in a handicap.
Walk On, Zaynar, Carlito Brigante, Get Me Out Of Here.The other races shouldn’t matter – there has to be a championship 2 1/2 mile hurdle.
The staying hurdle division has often been derided due its lack of competitiveness. Since the turn of the century Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Big Buck’s have won nine of the twelve renewals between them. I certainly think that a reduction in trip would introduce more quality and not necessarily detract from the Champion Hurdle.
The result would be a greater balance in quality between the two championship hurdle events.
That’s the other option but they are highly unlikely to change the World Hurdle.
I think there are more hurdlers suited to 2 1/2 than 3
Baracouda would have run over the trip. As would Kasbah Bliss.
My Way De Solzen might have.
Lough Derg was a 2 1/2 miler.
Inglis wouldn’t, but then maybe that’s how HJ trained him. If the race is shorter, he’s conditioned differently throughout the season by not be prepared over 3 miles.Most of these horses were high 150’s to high 160’s. It’s only Big Bucks that has received ratings akin to the Champion hurdle or chase races and he’s a failed chaser. Long Run would probably give him a run for his money over hurdles.
In other words Mark, you’d rather see a downgrading of the Champion and Stayers Hurdles to see a "Championship" 2m4f event. I’m very much in favour of keeping the standard of the two existing races at their highest.
Value Is Everythingthere has to be a championship 2 1/2 mile hurdle.
There is……. at AINTREE!
If there was a 2m4f Championship at Cheltenham – it would also downgrade the Aintree race… Because it wouldn’t mean so much. No reason why Cheltenham should have a Championship event over every distance. There are other racecourses!
Although no doubt trainers are in favour of one each at 2m, 2m1f, 2m2f, 2m3f, 2m4f, 2m5f etc etc… so everyone could win a Championship event. 
If a Championship event does not attract the BEST horses in that category, it is only a "championship" in name only.
Value Is EverythingIt’s only Big Bucks that has received ratings akin to the Champion hurdle
Not true Mark.
Look at the Timeform Ratings of the Champion Hurdle winner compared to Stayers Hurdle winners this century (on page 2 of this thread). 9 of the 13 years had a better staying hurdler than "Champion" (2m) Hurdler.
Value Is EverythingIt’s only Big Bucks that has received ratings akin to the Champion hurdle
Not true Mark.
Look at the Timeform Ratings of the Champion Hurdle winner compared to Stayers Hurdle winners this century (on page 2 of this thread). 9 of the 13 years had a better staying hurdler than "Champion" (2m) Hurdler.
Seconded. That is a very good post to get a feel for the quality of staying hurdlers in the modern era. It opened my eyes, GT.
People try to knock Big Buck’s by looking at the subsequent failures of the horses he swats away in the World Hurdle. Could it be that Grands Crus (so far), Punchestowns and Time For Rupert were just brutalised so much by Big Buck’s that it stunted their potential?
Thanks for reminding me TYF.
I backed all three for the RSA!Punchestowns, Time For Rupert and Grands Crus were all top novice chasers, so don’t think it was anything to do with Big Bucks. Just unable to recover from physical problems towards the end of their novice year.
Value Is EverythingAlthough no doubt trainers are in favour of one each at 2m, 2m1f, 2m2f, 2m3f, 2m4f, 2m5f etc etc… so everyone could win a Championship event.
Like The Breeders’ Cup you mean?
Mike
It’s only Big Bucks that has received ratings akin to the Champion hurdle
Not true Mark.
Look at the Timeform Ratings of the Champion Hurdle winner compared to Stayers Hurdle winners this century (on page 2 of this thread). 9 of the 13 years had a better staying hurdler than "Champion" (2m) Hurdler.
Four of them by one of the greats. Only on one other occasion has another stayer surpassed a rating achieved by a 2 miler – Baracouda. And it’s Timeform. They don’t make things true.
Think they overrated Iris’s Gift because of a substandard Baracouda – race 8 seconds above standard – and underrated Hardy Eustace because he was a long shot – 3 seconds above standardWhat are the ratings of the runners up ?
Still makes no sense to not have the championship race for this distance, especially when there is one for novices.
The other races should be irrelevant – as it is, i think you’d have three high quality races.there has to be a championship 2 1/2 mile hurdle.
There is……. at AINTREE!
If there was a 2m4f Championship at Cheltenham – it would also downgrade the Aintree race… Because it wouldn’t mean so much. No reason why Cheltenham should have a Championship event over every distance. There are other racecourses! Although no doubt trainers are in favour of one each at 2m, 2m1f, 2m2f, 2m3f, 2m4f, 2m5f etc etc… so everyone could win a Championship event. If a Championship event does not attract the BEST horses in that category, it is only a "championship" in name only.
Patronising won’t get you anywhere.
Gold Cup – Betfred Bowl. The latter still a good race.
World Hurdle – Liverpool Hurdle. Big Bucks, Mighty Man, Iris’s Gift have all won both
Triumph Hurdle – Anniversary Hurdle. List of winners for the latter – Binocular, Zarkandar, Grumeti, Detroit City, Katchit.All good races at Aintree, though the Cheltenham race rightly being the most prestigious.
They would still be high class races.
It’s crap to suggest the reason not to have such a race because it would weaken races at that and other meetings.
They would still be high class races.
It’s crap to suggest the reason not to have such a race because it would weaken races at that and other meetings.
You’re right Mark, with a Ryanair Hurdle the "Champion" and Stayers hurdles would be "high class races", but they wouldn’t be "Championship races".
If you don’t think weakening the two races is good enough reason, look at last year’s Stayers. Big Buck’s started odds-on at 5/6. With Oscar Whisky 4/1, Thousand Stars 8/1, Dynaste 14/1, So Young 16/1, Voler La Vedette 20/1, Smad Place 20/1. What horse in that list would not be effective at 2m4f? Hurricane Fly started even shorter than BB, @ 4/6! So how many of those fields would’ve gone for a 2m4f alternative, avoiding the "good-things"?
The list above from Oscar Wisky to Smad Place takes out over 53% of the book. At the weekend we saw Big Buck’s in a Grade 1 starting at 1/12. Do we really want to see odds close to that sort of price/uncompetitive racing at The Festival Mark?
It is ridiculous to suggest weakening the other races should not be a good enough reason to halt any attempt at a Ryanair Hurdle.
Value Is EverythingThey would still be high class races.
It’s crap to suggest the reason not to have such a race because it would weaken races at that and other meetings.
You’re right Mark, with a Ryanair Hurdle the "Champion" and Stayers hurdles would be "high class races", but they wouldn’t be "Championship races".
If you don’t think weakening the two races is good enough reason, look at last year’s Stayers. Big Buck’s started odds-on at 5/6. With Oscar Whisky 4/1, Thousand Stars 8/1, Dynaste 14/1, So Young 16/1, Voler La Vedette 20/1, Smad Place 20/1. What horse in that list would not be effective at 2m4f? Hurricane Fly started even shorter than BB, @ 4/6! So how many of those fields would’ve gone for a 2m4f alternative, avoiding the "good-things"?
The list above from Oscar Wisky to Smad Place takes out over 53% of the book. At the weekend we saw Big Buck’s in a Grade 1 starting at 1/12. Do we really want to see odds close to that sort of price/uncompetitive racing at The Festival Mark?
It is ridiculous to suggest weakening the other races should not be a good enough reason to halt any attempt at a Ryanair Hurdle.
You wouldn’t see those odds.
Champion Chase, Ryanair and Gold Cup are all top class, championship races. It would be the same in the hurdle division apart from the World Hurdle at the moment. You might get only 6 runners due to others defecting to the " Ryanair " hurdle, but many of them aren’t accomplished three milers anyway. They are running in that race because there is nowhere else for them
It’s wrong.
Although no doubt trainers are in favour of one each at 2m, 2m1f, 2m2f, 2m3f, 2m4f, 2m5f etc etc… so everyone could win a Championship event. 
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