- This topic has 49 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Posts
I live in hope, and its probably forlorn hope, that at least Quevega will challenge him in March instead of another penalty kick in the Mares race.
According to an interview with Willie Mullins today, the only way Quevega will meet Bib Bucks is if he travels to Punchestown.
How cringe was that interview with Willie earlier. He asked the question which was fine and Willie gave his answer but then he keep on at him for at least 3 minutes after that – it was embarrassing!! Willie then started walking away and he starts yelling that he’s a coward for running scared of Big Bucks, all light hearted obviousely!
Anyway, like Boz has already said, i think we have missed the boat in the way of a return to the chasing game, but here’s a thought:-
If PN came out tomorrow morning and said Big Bucks will now be aimed at the 2013 Gold Cup (clearly this wont happen), where would he sit in the anti post market?!
I disagree – its constantly the least competitive discipline in NH, and the lack of interest in the race yesterday tells its own story. You reference the short price as the reason? Need i refer to a certain flat horse running at 1/10, 1/20 etc, who drummed up a fair bit of interest?
Its a real shame Big Bucks will end up retiring without testing himself. I live in hope, and its probably forlorn hope, that at least Quevega will challenge him in March instead of another penalty kick in the Mares race. Or should I just "enjoy" Quevega as well Ginge?
Frankel was not only the best miler we’ve ever seen PC, he’s THE BEST RACEHORSE full stop. So it’s not the same.
"Enjoy" Quevega yes, doesn’t mean we have to approve. I was, and always will be against the mares hurdle, quality is simply not there. Quevega should definitely run against Big Bucks, but won’t with her benifit race as an alternative. Although having said that, I suspect had the mares race not been in existance – she’d have taken on BB once and then packed off to the paddocks.
Did you say "it’s a shame" Denman "will end up retiring without testing himself", never having the chance to show what he could do in the Stayers Hurdle? Or Moscow Flyer and Best Mate. Neither having a chance to take on the Champion Hurdle before going chasing. I myself backed Moscow Flyer ante-post for the "Foot and mouth" Champion Hurdle. Also know a professional gambler who had a massive bet on Best Mate immediately after an unlucky 2nd in the Supreme Novices, only for Hen (minutes later) to rule him out.
Of course "it’s constantly the least competitive discipline in NH". Big Buck’s frightens them off. Every time a top class staying hurdler comes along (Punchestowns, Time For Rupert, Grands Crus, Dynaste etc) they realise they’re not good enough, got no chance of beating the best staying hurdler we’ve ever seen… And (the following season) change disciplines, wanting to win Grade 1 races instead of finishing 2nd all the time. Had they all stayed over hurdles, the division would be far from "uncompetitive".
It’s true, Staying Hurdle division is a little less competitive than the lesser trip, because of the better ones moving on to fences. It does NOT mean the TOP staying hurdlers are inferior, in fact far from it…
Am sure Timeform won’t mind me using their old ratings, but if there’s any problem please delete.
Just because a horse has more "speed", does not make him a better racehorse. This is how this century’s Timeform best rated staying hurdler and 2 mile hurdlers compare.
In 1999/2000 Limestone Lad 177,
Istabraq 180
.
In 2000/1 Le Sauvignon 178,Istabraq 180
.
In 2001/2Baracouda 169+
, Limestone Lad 167.
In 2002/3Baracouda 175
, Rooster Booster 170.
In 2003/4Iris’s Gift 172
, Hardy Eustace 167.
In 2004/5 Inglis Drever 162,Hardy Eustace 165
.
In 2005/6 Mighty Man 166,Brave Inca 167
.
In 2006/7Mighty Man 172
, Sublimity 164.
In 2007/8Inglis Drever 169
, Sizing Europe 165.
In 2008/9Big Buck’s 174+
, Binocular 166.
In 2009/10Big Buck’s 174+
, Binocular 168.
In 2010/11Big Buck’s 176+
, Hurricane Fly 172.
In 2011/12Big Buck’s 176+
, Hurricane Fly 173.
There was a time when staying hurdlers were generally inferior to 2 milers. Those who still believe that are living in the past. This century 9 of the 13 years had (according to Timeform) a better staying hurdler than 2 mile hurdler.
Value Is EverythingStill find it hard to believe that Big Bucks is a box walker, given that he never looks anything other than magnificent whenever we see him. PH has that gift of being able to see inside a horses head
and his horses are, essentially, happy horses. And that’s one of the reasons why they run so well. Given that BB is not a natural jumper and suffers from a horsey version of stress it would be ridiculous to make him do something that we all now know he hates doing [and isn’t very good at]. It was amazing watching him yesterday seeing him swinging along on the bridle with all the other horses and jockeys throwing everything they had at him, to no avail. There’s even a suspicion that trying to beat him has soured Voler la Vedette, although the chances are her age has caught up with her. But I would love to see him at Ascot on the flat.
Good post Moehat.
But when assessing VLV:
Won’t know quite if Voler is as good as she was, until a race is run to suit. ie Truly run staying race. She’d been beaten by Zaidpour before, under similar conditions to today.Value Is EverythingNo horses wins this many races in a row without being exceptional. The division can be uncompetitive, but each Cheltenham stayers race he has won has been enthralling. Could he have been successful over fences? Perhaps, but connections, connections who know more about the horse and racing than the majority of us will ever know, do not think so.
Instead of complaining, simply enjoy an exceptional race horse win over and over again. He’s not quite the talent Kauto Star/Denman were at their peak, however i still love watching him race.
Isn’t that enough?
Or must we complain about everything? Does this forum enjoy anything?
The "top staying hurdlers" BB has beaten have turned to be pretty average when attempting a more competitive division (though Dynasts has looked good – so far).
BB should have been given his chance at the big time; any other trainer and we could be talking about one of the greats. That Quevega ducks the world hurdle and BB doesn’t come to Punchestown makes it even worse; in an already uncompetitive division the two best horses have never met.I think that’s unfair critiscism given that PN has, over the years pitched his best horses against each other at the highest level; ok not throughout the season but then it is his job to win races for the owners. I very much doubt if BB is a horse that travels well and Willie Mullins rarely brings horses over here except for the Festival. It was interesting to read how highly rated Baracouda was over hurdles. One of my lasting memories is of seeing Francois Doumen with his horse after he’d been beaten by Iris’s Gift at Cheltenham; I felt his sadness was not for himself or the horses owners but for the horse itself. The other memory is of Phillip Hobb’s ashen face after Detroit City had been beaten in the Champion Hurdle. It’s a very lonely place being the trainer of a beaten horse. Glad I don’t do it for a living!
Still baffles me why there isn’t a Graded 2 1/2 mile hurdle at Cheltenham for senior horses. It is the only distance that novices race yet cannot at senior level at the sports own flagship festival.
Not one person has ever given a reasonable explanation.
Still baffles me why there isn’t a Graded 2 1/2 mile hurdle at Cheltenham for senior horses. It is the only distance that novices race yet cannot at senior level at the sports own flagship festival.
Not one person has ever given a reasonable explanation.
It’s easily explained Mark,
The reason why Cheltenham is the best meeting in the World, is it’s both the BEST quality horses running and in ultra-competitive races. There aren’t enough top class horses to go around. Most (almost all) top 2 mile hurdlers stay 2m4f anyway… And almost all 2m4f hurdlers would be effective over a strongly run 2 miles around a stiff course like Cheltenham; and those that aren’t would be effective over a fair paced 3 miles.Nicky Henderson would like a Ryanair Hurdle. Of course he would like an easier option to win / win prize money. Look at the one who’s often quoted as a 2m4f horse, Oscar Whiskey. Didn’t stay 3 miles last year, but watch the Champion Hurdle he took part in. Ran to form and travelled as easily as most rivals; putting up (at the time) a career best effort in 3rd. If the Champion was run on a flat track (needing total speed) then it would be different, Cheltenham brings stamina in to play for 2m4f horses to be effective at 2 miles.
If we had a Ryanair Hurdle and the Champion Hurdle had an odds-on favourite – not many would turn up for the Champion. Makes sense to go for the race connections believe they stand a chance of winning. Same goes for the Stayers Hurdle. Imagine; how many horses would’ve taken on the already odds-on Big Buck’s had there been a Ryanair Hurdle? Grands Crus, Voler La Verdette, Smad Place, Thousand Stars, Oscar Whiskey – are all competitive at 2m4f and unlikely to have run against BB. Take all those out of the Stayers Hurdle and what price would the favourite have been? Long odds-on in a far less competitive event. A Ryanair hurdle runs a great risk of making Championship Hurdle races just like any other Grade 1 race.
Value Is EverythingThe above is exactly why the Rynair was catastrophic for the QMCC. If Sprinter Sacre dots up in his races up to MArch (likely) the field will again be pathetically small.
Before the race was made up from Grade 2 to Grade 1, I believe I am right in stating that the previous winners of the Rynair had won a grand total of Zero open-age Grade 1 chases between them. Why it got made up is anyone’s guess.
"Gingertipster":cntvcurd wrote:
Still baffles me why there isn’t a Graded 2 1/2 mile hurdle at Cheltenham for senior horses. It is the only distance that novices race yet cannot at senior level at the sports own flagship festival.
Not one person has ever given a reasonable explanation.
It’s easily explained Mark,
The reason why Cheltenham is the best meeting in the World, is it’s both the BEST quality horses running and in ultra-competitive races. There aren’t enough top class horses to go around. Most (almost all) top 2 mile hurdlers stay 2m4f anyway… And almost all 2m4f hurdlers would be effective over a strongly run 2 miles around a stiff course like Cheltenham; and those that aren’t would be effective over a fair paced 3 miles.Nicky Henderson would like a Ryanair Hurdle. Of course he would like an easier option to win / win prize money. Look at the one who’s often quoted as a 2m4f horse, Oscar Whiskey. Didn’t stay 3 miles last year, but watch the Champion Hurdle he took part in. Ran to form and travelled as easily as most rivals; putting up (at the time) a career best effort in 3rd. If the Champion was run on a flat track (needing total speed) then it would be different, Cheltenham brings stamina in to play for 2m4f horses to be effective at 2 miles.
If we had a Ryanair Hurdle and the Champion Hurdle had an odds-on favourite – not many would turn up for the Champion. Makes sense to go for the race connections believe they stand a chance of winning. Same goes for the Stayers Hurdle. Imagine; how many horses would’ve taken on the already odds-on Big Buck’s had there been a Ryanair Hurdle? Grands Crus, Voler La Verdette, Smad Place, Thousand Stars, Oscar Whiskey – are all competitive at 2m4f and unlikely to have run against BB. Take all those out of the Stayers Hurdle and what price would the favourite have been? Long odds-on in a far less competitive event. A Ryanair hurdle runs a great risk of making Championship Hurdle races just like any other Grade 1 race.
That’s one explanation. It does not reasonably explain why you have graded races at the all three " distances " for novices and seniors over fences and hurdles….except 2 1/2m hurdles for seniors.
Swap the Coral with the Pertemps and introduce a Grade 1 2 1/2m hurdle on the Thursday on the stiffer New Course.
Some of the hurdlers you mention are only running over three miles because two is too short and there is no other race.
The National Hunt Festival Meeting and there isn’t a race available for senior horses running at that distance all year….but there is at Aintree
IT MAKES NO SENSE.
The above is exactly why the Rynair was catastrophic for the QMCC. If Sprinter Sacre dots up in his races up to MArch (likely) the field will again be pathetically small.
Before the race was made up from Grade 2 to Grade 1, I believe I am right in stating that the previous winners of the Rynair had won a grand total of Zero open-age Grade 1 chases between them. Why it got made up is anyone’s guess.
Agreed PC, if not "catastrophic", it hasn’t done the QMCC any favours. Ryanair effectively replaced the Cathcart, which wasn’t open to everyone, just first and second season chasers only. Don’t know if it was also restricted to those who had not won a Grade 1 either. Ryanair started as a Grade 2, but everyone knew it would become a Grade 1 in no time. Current QM winner Finians Rainbow may well turn up in the Ryanair this year, if only to avoid his stable companion.
Whenever there’s an odds-on favourite for the QMCC many equally effective at the Ryanair trip will go there instead. Even in normal years the QM is not as competitive as it once was. It also takes horses away from the Gold Cup. Imperial Commander won the 2009 race before taking the Gold Cup. Albertas Run ran in a Gold Cup, Riverside Theatre has been backed by some good judges to win the Gold Cup this season.
I wasn’t for the Ryanair and still have reservations, however, there’s no argueing most winners are up to Championship standard. Even though it’s taken something away from both QM and GC, the Ryanair has established itself as a top race at the Festival.
Value Is Everything" Catastrophic for the QMCC "
a ) Since the Ryanair was introduced, the QMCC has been won by Moscow Flyer, Master Minded, Sizing Europe, Big Zeb, Finians Rainbow. Last seasons renewal was one of the best races in years, and would probably have been so even if they’d jumped the last. All worthy Group 1 winners.
b ) The Ryanair itself has been won by similarly worthy Group 1 winners, a Gold Cup winner, double Cheltenham and double Aintree winner…
What this proves is that the race was needed. Specialist distance horses and those moving up in distance competing in a Championship race they deserved to be in, and their connections deserved to enter them in.
" Sorry, you can run at 2 1/2 miles all season but we’re not having a championship race at the distance " is just plain stupid.
" Catastrophic for the QMCC "
a ) Since the Ryanair was introduced, the QMCC has been won by Moscow Flyer, Master Minded, Sizing Europe, Big Zeb, Finians Rainbow. Last seasons renewal was one of the best races in years, and would probably have been so even if they’d jumped the last. All worthy Group 1 winners.
b ) The Ryanair itself has been won by similarly worthy Group 1 winners, a Gold Cup winner, double Cheltenham and double Aintree winner…
What this proves is that the race was needed. Specialist distance horses and those moving up in distance competing in a Championship race they deserved to be in, and their connections deserved to enter them in.
" Sorry, you can run at 2 1/2 miles all season but we’re not having a championship race at the distance " is just plain stupid.
(a) Irrelevant.
(b) Irrelevant. Assuming you mean Grade rather than Group, The Rynair is still a stepping stone. Perhaps the Dante should become a Group 1?The Rynair should never have been made up to Grade 1. If the race must be, because of the greed driven fourth day, then keep it below Grade 1 standard.
Whilst it was a Grade 2, Thisthatandtother and Fondmort won the race. Neither had ever won an open-age Grade 1 chase between them, but yet the race was made up to Grade 1. Why?
" Catastrophic for the QMCC "
a ) Since the Ryanair was introduced, the QMCC has been won by Moscow Flyer, Master Minded, Sizing Europe, Big Zeb, Finians Rainbow. Last seasons renewal was one of the best races in years, and would probably have been so even if they’d jumped the last. All worthy Group 1 winners.
As PC says Mark, the quality of winners is irrelevent. Quality of QM winners has actually gone up in the last 8 years since the Ryanair Chase was established. However, if the BEST horse going in to Cheltenham is effective at both race distances – connections will plump for the QM anyway… Because it’s the most PRESTIGEOUS the winner’s quality is unlikely to be effected. It’s the other runners who may well go to the Ryanair for a chance to win a Festival race. Horses like dual QM runner-up Native Upmanship would in all probably have gone for the longer race had it been around in 2002 & 2003.
Over all quality of QM runners is certainly down. Taking the winner out of the equatuion (for reasons already given)… Comparing the last 8 runnings with the previous 8 runnings, the average quality of the QM runners is poorer. Average Timeform performance rating of the third placed horse being over half a stone worse!
Presumably the 4th, 5th etc are similarly regressing.As said Mark, reason why the Cheltenham Festival is the BEST four days racing in the World – is because it is both top quality and ultra-competitive. If there was a Ryanair Hurdle it runs a great risk of that ultra-competitiveness disappearing – for Championship races to become like any other Grade 1 during the year.
Value Is Everythingfor me the ryanair was the race of last years festival,but i think this argument is more apt for the golden miller weakening the arkle.
back to big bucks, i found watching saturdays race much more interesting than watching frankel in this years sussex stakes..now that WAS boringAs said Mark, reason why the Cheltenham Festival is the BEST four days racing in the World – is because it is both top quality and ultra-competitive. If there was a Ryanair Hurdle it runs a great risk of that ultra-competitiveness disappearing – for Championship races to become like any other Grade 1 during the year.
The best four days racing in the world, the sports annual festival celebration, and there isn’t a championship race for a distance that’s run all season, with Cheltenham themselves staging 2 1/2 mile hurdles races
Disagree about the Ryanair / QMCC, but no one can explain the above with reason.
It is a championship distance for hurdlers. It’s not a compromise. More horses are suited to this distance. They would be entered mostly because it’s in the interests of the horse, not because Big Bucks is around.
Also think you would see some horses stay over hurdles instead of going chasing because they aren’t fast enough for 2 or have the stamina for 3. Menorah and Peddlers Cross being two.Oscar Whisky, Peddlers Cross, Menorah, Zarkandar or Rock On Ruby, some from Mullins and other Irish stables. Cracking race.
And you still have Hurricane, Darlan, Binocular, Grandouet, Countrywide Flame and others in the Champion.
Presumably the 4th, 5th etc are similarly regressing.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.