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June 22, 2007 at 19:18 #2161davidjohnsonMember
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Under their optimum conditions, who is the best? The Guineas and Coronation Stakes suggest that it’s probably not as cut and dried as we all thought after Newmarket.
For what it’s worth, I think we may have over-estimated Finsceal Beo somewhat. Hard not to be impressed today by Indian Ink. I don’t think there’s much at all between Indian Ink and Finsceal Beo but on todays evidence think they are both a little better than Darjina and Mi Emma.June 22, 2007 at 19:28 #66126LetsGetRacingMember
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Indian Ink was almost certainly flattered by the margin of victory this afternoon, suited far better by the rapidly softening ground.
On good ground or quicker, she wouldn’t see which way Mi Emma went.June 22, 2007 at 19:30 #66127madman marzMember
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Quote: from davidjohnson on 8:18 pm on June 22, 2007[br]Under their optimum conditions, who is the best? The Guineas and Coronation Stakes suggest that it’s probably not as cut and dried as we all thought after Newmarket.
[size=3]A bit hypothetical DJ, personaly I would reserve my judgement until the principals run again, hopefully against each other, and of course on real flat racing ground, ie good to firm.
On another topic, Manduro & Authorized, now that would be a race to savour[/size](Edited by madman marz at 8:31 pm on June 22, 2007)
<br>(Edited by madman marz at 8:33 pm on June 22, 2007)<br>
(Edited by madman marz at 8:33 pm on June 22, 2007)June 22, 2007 at 19:35 #66128davidjohnsonMember
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Not really hypothetical. It’s a question that the BHB handicapper and all other ratings compilers are asking themselves.June 22, 2007 at 19:44 #66129FlashMember
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I’d suggest Indian Ink today put up a higher rating than any other three year old filly.
Its Ok saying on faster ground she wouldn’t see which way so and so went but on her ground so and so didn’t see which way Indian Ink went, its all relevant.
Today Indian Ink showed that in her favoured conditions she is a top class filly.June 22, 2007 at 20:23 #66130AnonymousInactive
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The 15 lengths turnaround on form between Indian Ink and Finsceal Beo emphasises what a futile pursuit ratings are – unless conditions are taken into account in every case, which they rarely are.June 22, 2007 at 21:23 #66131AnonymousInactive
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Quote: from trackside528 on 9:31 pm on June 22, 2007[br]
On a slightly different note, are you finally willing to accept that Finsceal Beo’s three Classic runs have had an effect on her?.. granted, the ground wasn’t ideal for her today (but it certainly wasn’t ideal for Arch Swing either and she comprehensively turned around the Newmarket form) and she came there travelling very strongly around two furlongs out, only to go out like a light..
Just hope that she’s not been soured and that Bolger gives her the break she so deserves..<br>
Trackside<br>From a different thread:<br>"She was going as well as any at the distance, (which a tired horse wouldn’t have), then fell in a hole. <br>Typical really, of a horse that stays a mile on fast ground but not on soft and, when the courses and the ground are considered, in line with all her previous form this season. <br>Maybe it’s easier to blame her trainer than to try and understand the form book?"
Why would a horse be tired with a month’s break since her last run, when she hadn’t been after a 1 week break, then again after a 2 weeks break previously?<br>Jim Bolger has kept us appraised of her condition all along and, as I recall, she has gained weight after every race, which is not the sign of a horse losing condition through over-racing.<br>I would trust Jim Bolger to know what he is doing- certainly enough to know how his horse is – and I suspect the only reason she ran in today’s ground that he had little option, given the lack of appropriate races<br>at her level for a fit horse.<br> <br>June 22, 2007 at 21:40 #66132Irish StampMember
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I have it on good authority the top 3yo 1m filly in Europe resides in Ireland and would have loved todays conditions. ;)June 22, 2007 at 21:54 #66133Scottish JamieParticipant
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Did anyone else think the normally excellent Kevin Manning may have disappointed FB by not kicking on when she had the momentum ? When you see the side on view she makes her ground up easily and as she gets alongside the leaders he takes a pull for maybe 75 yards then asks her to go again and she duly treads water.
I don’t know, maybe it made no difference but in all her races they have been happy to let her go for home early but today he was trying to hold onto her for some reason, maybe he felt she wasnt going as well as it looked or was concerned about stamina in the softer ground.
It has to be said that Indian Ink would have beaten her come what may but I would like to see what would have happened if he had committed her properly when she was inhaling the leaders. I’m sure that’s what the filly was expecting.June 22, 2007 at 23:00 #66134AnonymousInactive
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Yes, but you have to consider the form of each horse.<br>Darjina didn’t catch FB until the final strides in the French 1,000, and will almost certainly stay further; on today’s evidence, so will Arch Swing.<br>FB is a totally different kettle of fish. <br>She had the English 2,000 – run on fast ground- won fully a furlong from home. On slower ground at Longchamp she didn’t quite last home. She then ran at the Curragh, a sriffer 1m than Newmarket, she took it up at the furlong pole and just lasted home, (On good ground, rather than the official g/f).<br>Little surprise then, that on probably the stiffest track of the lot, and the slowest going, her effort petered out earlier in the race, and no surprise to see stronger staying horses reverse the form with her?<br>That isn’t a fine line, but a reasonable judgement made on the facts of all her form this season, and not based on the supposition that the trainer doesn’t understand his own horse, (though I’m not in any way suggesting that you are one who subscribes to that view).June 23, 2007 at 08:05 #66135FriggoMember
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Under optimum conditions, I think FB is the best filly without too much doubt. However, Indian Ink really impressed me yesterday with the pace she showed against top horses, I’d like to see those two meet again on slightly faster ground after FB’s had a rest.June 23, 2007 at 10:30 #66136
Im with trackside here. Ground isnt enough of an explanation given thats shes performed on it at a certain level before.
She had a real spark about her at newmarketJune 23, 2007 at 10:40 #66137
im thinking of the rockfel of course. If she could do 7f at 2 at newmarket on good/soft then this weeks race shopuldnt have been as far beyond her ability as the form would suggest surely?
Also she may have had a month since the Irish Guineas, but those three races could easily have left a mark. Its not a schedule that many fillies have tried (if any)June 23, 2007 at 12:49 #66138AnonymousInactive
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It isn’t just the ground, though.<br>Truth is, she travelled very well on yesterday’s going, until stamina became an issue. It is the stiffness of the test caused by the course, ground, and overall pace that makes the difference to her.<br>She handled it immaculately at Newmarket, was only caught in the shadow of the post at Longchamp, and by a top class horse, just held on at the Curragh, (Where a better horse than Dimenticata would probably have beaten her), and simply failed to stay at Ascot.<br>If you look at it as a sequence, she has increasingly met stiffer tests throughout the season, and increasingly performed less well, whereas, if over-racing was the issue, she should have performed better after a 2 week rest, and better again after a 4 week rest. <br>Also she would have been unlikely, if she was suffering from overtraining, to have consistently gained weight throughout the season.<br>At the end of the day, Jim Bolger is nobody’s mug, and it isn’t for the likes of us to tell him was wrong on 3 occasions, particularly given her record thus far this season.June 23, 2007 at 17:44 #66139
I remain unconvinced :)
Beaten too far and the lights went out too quickly to just be stamina.
Im never entirely sure how this works, but those that get 7f at 2 should surely have developed enough stamina to cope witha tough mile at 3?
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