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Does it not make sense not to run the horse when he’s got sore shins and to run when he has not got sore shins?
Um yes…
If you and on your knees alot ginge, fitting your carpets and Doctor tells you that you have sore knees would it not make sense to go back to work and not do a sh!t load of overtime which would increase your chance of having sore knees again.
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Havana Gold is no Dawn Approach either
Did Toronado not improve to win the Sussex
Queen Anne was a very good performance from Toronado, won easy and was his debut run of the season, Verrazano already having a run in the Lockinge. Also worth noting High Chaparral offspring not having a good record at Royal Ascot.
Toronado’s time that day was faster than Frankel, Goldikova, Canford Cliffs, Solow and plenty of other Queen Anne times. Yes, the going’s are different but not bad for a non improving horseGaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
And anyway, they could “have plenty of fun with him” even if “the real deal”. You’re putting your own meaning to those words. I see no “contradiction”.
Yes they could have fun with him, but when Richard Hannon on many, many occasions has talked about having ‘plenty of fun’ with horses, they were all handicappers. Didn’t see Canford Cliffs running in handicaps and he was the real deal. You don’t have fun if you have the real deal, it’s deadly serious. You plan each race to the last detail.
What would you class as having fun with a horse..?
Perhaps Hannon means they will go to the seaside and build sandcastles together before buying an icecream and having a bash on the dodgemsGaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Havana Gold is no Dawn Approach either True, Havana Gold was no Dawn Approach, but Toronado did not beat Dawn Approach 4 lengths while giving him 3 lbs.
Did Toronado not improve to win the Sussex Timeform Performance Rating for the Craven victory 129+, Timeform Performance Rating for the Sussex victory 131. So as I said, he pretty much achieved his level of form in the Craven. DA beating T at Ascot I remember Toronado’s Timeform Rating being 1 lb higher than Dawn Approah’s going in to the Sussex. Sectional times suggesting T’s performance in finishing second to DA at Ascot better than DA’s winning performance there. Hughes giving his horse too much to do in the St James’s Palace and Toranado doing exceptionally well to get within a short head. I remember making plenty of money that day on the Sussex Downs. T’s Timeform Sussex Performance Rating being 1 lb higher than DA’s.
Queen Anne was a very good performance from Toronado, won easy and was his debut run of the season, Verrazano already having a run in the Lockinge. Also worth noting High Chaparral offspring not having a good record at Royal Ascot. It was very good, just wasn’t as good as his three year old best.
Toronado’s time that day was faster than Frankel, Goldikova, Canford Cliffs, Solow and plenty of other Queen Anne times. Yes, the going’s are different but not bad for a non improving horse Yes, the going’s are different but not bad for a non improving horse. Couldn’t put it better myself. Not knocking the horse, one of my favourites just wasn’t improving with age as you suggest and therefore not something to knock Hannon running Watan with.Value Is EverythingDo you not think Toronado had potential to improve for a 5 y/o campaign. He only ran once at 10f and that was too bad to be a true running. Plenty of High Chaparral’s have improved with age or have maintained a high level with age. No horse improves with age totally as you have to reach a peak.
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Toronado was giving weight for age against Kingman as a 4 y/o in the Sussex and went down a length.
Kingman would have slaughtered Dawn Approach and could of giving Havana Gold as much weight as he wanted too
You will say it was off a slow pace and Toronado had the run of the race but not a lot different to that of the CravenGaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
just wasn’t improving with age as you suggest
In your opinion
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Doesn’t matter what I’d describe “having fun with”, Nathan; can’t see how a trainer can be criticised for using a phrase when it means different things to different people and sometimes can mean different things to the same person at different times. A phrase am sure a lot use just for something to say.
I would’ve been very surprised had Toronado improved at 5, he’d found his level.
I have had to stop work due to bad knees and ankles before, needing to wait for them to recover before resuming work. Once it was better I could once again do any amount of work.
Value Is EverythingToronado was giving weight for age against Kingman as a 4 y/o in the Sussex and went down a length.
Kingman would have slaughtered Dawn Approach and could of giving Havana Gold as much weight as he wanted too
You will say it was off a slow pace and Toronado had the run of the race but not a lot different to that of the CravenNo, that would not be my response, but yes a slow pace comes in to it…
True the time wasn’t great for the Craven after a slow opening quarter, it did quicken to a good pace thereafter. In contrast to the Sussex which was not just slow but funereal!!! Top class Timeform Timefigures are 125 or more; Kingman’s was just 25. Not sure there’s ever been a slower run race. Unfortunately that type is impossible to rate highly. Yes, a length defeat by Kingman is on the face of it a good performance; but you’ve got to look at the other runners too in order to see the form status. Toronado is far, far more than just a head and 1 3/4 lengths better than 3rd Darwin and 4th Outstrip. Those two keep the form down.Value Is EverythingIn your opinion
Yes, in my opinion and Timeform’s and Racing Post Ratings and the official handicapper and …
Value Is EverythingSo a 3 y/o Toronado off level weights would have beaten Kingman then Ginge.?
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Doesn’t matter what I’d describe “having fun with”
We all know your idea of fun, it’s being tucked up in bed (timeform duvet) with Shirley going over the percentage of odds table.
I’m not having a go at Hannon just pointing out his contradiction in terms of him saying ‘having fun’ and ‘real deal’ nothing in it at all just that he doesn’t often if at all ever say the same thing about the same horse. Maybe it’s a new phase for him, I’m not fussed. I like Watan, I think he’ll improve with age. It’s yet to be seen if he’s the real deal but if he can win tomorrow in that field it will be a boost to the yard for sure.
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So a 3 y/o Toronado off level weights would have beaten Kingman then Ginge.?
Do you understand weight for age and how horses are rated?
Both Kingman and Toronado can not be rated highly for that race due to the proximity of Darwin and Outstrip.
However, according to sectional time experts Kingman produced an absolutely outstanding final sectional which meant he showed speed fast enough to make him Champion Sprinter. Kingman also beat Toronado despite the run of the race greatly favouring the Hannon horse, ie sectionals indicate Kingman’s performance worth significantly better than Toronado’s. The latter better than the head between him and front runner Darwin. However, to put that all in to lbs in such an extremely slowly run dawdle is practically impossible. It is imo good enough to say that race implies Kingman is significantly better than Toronado and Toronado quite a bit better than Darwin, even though ratings do not show it.Value Is EverythingYou and Timeform etc say Toronado didn’t improve as a 4 y/o so weight for age is pointless in my question
If the horse is no better at 4 y/o as he was as at 3 y/o then the 3 y/o running against Kingman with the same circumstances ie pace of race but without the weight for age because in theory they would be both 3 y/o’s then Toronado would win then.
Thanks Ginge, he was better than I thought…
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There are known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.
Donald Rumsfeld.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Horses are rated against natural progression. If a horse makes less than natural progression through its life the rating will go down; ie his/her ability decreases. If making more than natural progression the rating will go up – ability increases. Toronado made less than natural progress from 3 to 4.
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