Home › Forums › Big Races – Discussion › King George 2015
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December 26, 2015 at 15:59 #1227260
Got a very sore throat from shouting; was never going to back Cue Card for fear of jinxing him. Haven’t felt this emotional about the race since the Dessie years.
December 26, 2015 at 16:03 #1227262Got a very sore throat from shouting; was never going to back Cue Card for fear of jinxing him. Haven’t felt this emotional about the race since the Dessie years.
I wasn’t on him either Moe, but I was willing him to get his head in front,
what a brave horseDecember 26, 2015 at 16:12 #1227264On that performance, I don’t see Vautour staying the Gold Cup even on good ground – he perhaps was a little bit keener in the early stages of the race than ideal and Ruby asked him at the last and I think tiredness was the reason he put down on him, had he pinged it he may have held on but Cue Card also missed the last as well so that is just nit picking
I can see Vautour winning a good ground King George but I think 3m is as far as he wants to go, so the Ryanair should be his target (afterall connections have the almost forgotten about 6 yr old Djakadam who is being aimed at the Cotswold Chase) and maybe the Betfred Bowl at Aintree as the ground there is usually pretty quick.
Don Cossack for me wasn’t fluent enough at any stage with his jumping (similar to his runs in the RSA and Ryanair) to keep a position (also noted him in running getting into a little argy bargy match with Cue Card) – it was a tired looking fall and to me he was booked for third anyway. It kind of validates what I thought about his rating from his Aintree win in beating the pre op Cue Card, he will win his G1s against weaker rivals or if the main rivals have an off day but on days like this when the big guns bring their ‘A’ games he is (and has been) found wanting.
Finally, a shout out to Al Ferof who ran on well to get third place for a third year – will probably now have to call him the Youmzain of NH.
December 26, 2015 at 16:17 #1227265No point in the others turning up who were 13+ lengths behind or Cue Card who was also dead on his feet at the end.
What race were you watching Nathan? :lol:
As others have said, Vautour finished dog tired despite travelling supremely well two out whilst his rivals were under pressure. Vautour then emptied out between there and the line whilst Cue Card stayed on that bit better.Vautour shortens from 11/4 to between 5/4 and 7/4 for the Ryanair. Lengthening out to 16/1 whilst his stable companions Djakadam and Don Poli (along with Cue Card) all shorten up for the Gold Cup.
Value Is EverythingDecember 26, 2015 at 16:35 #1227273Wow and Frankel didn’t stay the mile in the St James Palace stakes
Blackbeard to conquer the World
December 26, 2015 at 16:43 #1227277Wow and Frankel didn’t stay the mile in the St James Palace stakes
Frankel went off like a scalded cat Nathan. If you go off at quarter-horse pace at 1m then you fall in to a hole. Pace in the KG was strong, but not as overly strong as the St James’s Palace. Sectional timing and all that…
Value Is EverythingDecember 26, 2015 at 16:44 #1227278With all those negatives about Vautour before the race that you highlighted ginge does Cue Card really deserve to shorten up for the Gold Cup after only just touching him off?
Blackbeard to conquer the World
December 26, 2015 at 16:45 #1227279Ruby’s verdict will be important, but Mullins will have the final call and my instinct is he’ll stay with the Gold Cup. Above all, he’ll have in mind just how much more improvement can be drawn from Vautour between now and the festival which is his place after two majestic performances there.
Some sense of perspective is needed, imo. Today’s been looked at as three or four top class horses facing each other in a mid-season showdown. But Vautour is only 6 and this was just his 6th steeplechase. For Cue Card and Silv Conti (both 9) it was their 21st steeplechase. For Don Cossack (8) it was his 17th. Which horse is going to improve most between now and Gold Cup day? How much more did Mullins learn about the amount of work Vautour needs in the build up? How much better will track and, probably ground suit VT? How much longer would Ruby hold onto him?
Sure, the team have Djakadam, but he too is just 6 and, after today will find himself rated about half a stone inferior to his stablemate. The Riccis desperately want a Gold Cup; my guess is that they’ll reckon Vautour is the more likely of the two to give it to them.
All things considered, that was a mighty performance today. Pushing him out to 16s (Ginger. where is that available?) can be based only on a decision by traders that he will not get the trip. Quite a risk on their part given everything else he has in his favour.
December 26, 2015 at 17:01 #1227282With all those negatives about Vautour before the race that you highlighted ginge does Cue Card really deserve to shorten up for the Gold Cup after only just touching him off?
Too right he does.
Before today Timeform had Cue Card on 179, that’s 1 lb off being rated a “Great”. Ratings-wise well up to winning an average Gold Cup (although this might not be an average Gold Cup).
When you look at the distance back to the rest, imo it is very probable Cue Card ran to at least that rating.
Despite all the negatives Vautour probably put up his best performance yet. Just watch out for him at 2m4f!
However, the reason why I think the shortening of Cue Card is deserved is more because never looked more like a stayer than today. He’s a changed horse, as well as the trapped epiglottis op, he’s learnt to settle over the last year. No longer the tear away and now with a real chance of staying the extra distance.We are truly in a vintage season for chasers.
Value Is EverythingDecember 26, 2015 at 17:08 #1227283Pushing him out to 16s (Ginger. where is that available?) can be based only on a decision by traders that he will not get the trip. Quite a risk on their part given everything else he has in his favour.
It’s gone Joe. Was 16/1 with Paddy judged on Oddschecker. Now down to 12/1 tops with Paddy, Stan and Sportsbook.
Based as equally on will he run as will he get the trip I’d have thought.
Skybet’s 8/1 NRNB could be an alternative for you.Value Is EverythingDecember 26, 2015 at 17:10 #1227284I don’t think Ruby could have ridden a much better race today – Brennan also said that in that finish he did get to the bottom of Cue Card today but he kept finding just enough to nick it.
I have always said I wasn’t sure that Cue Card stayed 3m (in hindsight the breathing issues were the cause of that) but I think what has also helped is that they have given up the front running tactics and now drop him in to save energy. Who knows whether going a further 2f will suit Cue Card or not but one thing is for sure, with no Coneygree in the race it will not be as brutally a run race as last year and that will aid him in getting the trip.
Although he wasn’t bang on the speed until the second half of the race I defy anyone to say that at the home turn they didn’t think that when Ruby finally asked Vautour he would pull away and win by several lengths – when he did ask him between the 2nd & 3rd last and he didn’t put any more distance between himself and Cue Card that was when the warning bells started to ring for me. Both lost momentum by missing the last which pulls on your stamina reserves even more as you have to pick up and go again.
For me Vautour gave everything he had today but in the last 25 yards he was running on way past empty and this was 3m on a flat track – an additional 2f up and down hills at Cheltenham will see him stop in a similar vein as One Man used to do when turning for home – if Mullins & Ricci win the GC, it will be with Djakadam who fully gets the trip and impressed me no end on his debut over a trip I thought would catch him out big time.
For those taking a price on Vautour for the QM, you better hope Un De Sceaux misses the race as I can’t see them both lining up against each other – especially as they have the same front running game plan.
December 26, 2015 at 17:17 #1227285Djakadam is a good horse but I wouldn’t put him in the same class as Vautour, not after today. I wouldn’t be surprised actually if he went backwards slightly on Monday after his big run at punchestown first time up.
Obviously there are some stamina doubts about Vautour but I think set against that is that he loves the track and the ground should be perfect. I like the way Ruby just took the race by the scruff of the neck by easing past the slow Conti and I imagine they’ll try similar dominating tactics whatever race they run him in at Cheltenham.
If it comes up soft then Don Poli might become favourite but as long as the ground isn’t too bad Vautour is surely the one to beat in the gold cup! The Ryanair is a lovely race but just doesn’t anything like the same prestige as the big one.
December 26, 2015 at 18:09 #1227295I am sure that I heard on RUK that Djakadam misses the Lexus and will wait until the Cotswold Chase at Cheltenham – most people under rate him but after today, in a Gold Cup I would happily take him over Vautour.
At best the Gold Cup will be run on ground not to dissimilar to today’s race (they won’t allow it to be much quicker) and there are more than just stamina doubts about Vautour over 3m 2f – my personal opinion is that he would travel like the winner jumping 3rd last but off the home turn he will come off the bridle and then fall into a hole after jumping 2nd last a la One Man.
Don Poli impressed me at Aintree as I didn’t think the track would suit plus the problem he had with a slipping saddle but he was up against a National winner – with him I just wonder whether he will get outpaced at a crucial stage as I am not sure he has the tactical speed but if he is in touch coming to the last he will find all the way up the hill, probably would appreciate a proper soft ground GC.
December 26, 2015 at 18:31 #1227299Don Poli loves Cheltenham, that’s for sure. Suits him down to the ground as he just keeps finding and has seemingly endless reserves of stamina
I must admit the way Vautour won the JLT last year didn’t scream gold cup, mostly because he showed such speed, but I think they should go for the race with the horse anyway. Far from convinced Djakadam can beat Don Poli and there’s only one gold cup. You mention One man and that may well be a good comparison but I recall John Hales saying at a Cheltenham preview some time ago that he didn’t care if a horse he owned wasn’t sure to stay- he’d always prefer to take the risk as this was the race he really wanted to win. I’m sure Rich Ricci and Mullins feel the same way.
December 26, 2015 at 18:41 #1227300Just watched the race again and, recalling the way Vautour finished at Ascot, I suspect that, like many superb travellers, he simply doesn’t find much under pressure. There’s a big difference between that and not staying.
December 26, 2015 at 20:15 #1227316John Hales didn’t have another horse that he could throw at the race, the Ricci’s do and I think based on his first run Djakadam has more natural speed than Don Poli but he also wasn’t stopping up the Cheltenham hill and he kept Coneygree honest all the way to the line in that Gold Cup.
They are both big powerful chasers that will have benefitted from another year on their back and if they stay sound should be contesting many Gold Cups in the next 3-4 yrs. With the number of Gold Cup horses Gigginstown have (Don Poli, Don Cossack, Road to Riches and Sir Des Champs) it will be interesting to see what horse Bryan Cooper decides to ride.
Steep – I guess all horses are capable of staying all distances but because some will do it better than others we assume that the beaten horses ‘just didn’t stay’ when technically it would be that they were just outstayed.
December 26, 2015 at 20:43 #1227318Well done to all Cue Card backers!
Was a real gut wrencher for me to watch because I’m even more convinced afterwards that Coneygree would have led that field a merry dance and would not have been for passing…easy for me to say I suppose…
p
Breaking the race down afterwards did we earn anything new, looking at all the pre-race major players…Don Cossack – Ddin’t jump the best, or travel as well as he can…at one point went from 3rd to 6th or 7th in a matter of strides for no apparent reason….I said before hand when firmly in the Coneygree camp that his record in England is poor and if Coneygree had been pouring it on in front he’s lost races in the past when coming under pressure…..strangely enough, I still think it would have been real interesting had he not come down because we know he stays and he wasn’t far behind Cue Card when he came to grief, even though he’d been off the bridle for quite a way….suppose we’ll never know though and jumping is the name of the game and he wasn’t up to it…
Smad Place – Once again has fallen short at the top level….on reflection and with the benefit of hindsight it seems he left a lot behind at Newbury in a race that kind of fell into his lap? I was surprised pre-race at the amount of people saying he was a front runner and would lead the field….at Newbury everything seemed to drop right for him and jumped himself to the front a long way out…he was able to get into a nice rythmn and was never asked a question or put under pressure…looking back to last years Hennessy & Gold Cup he was soundly beaten in both when ridden held up…when he was asked the question there was nothing there, again I think Newbury took a lot out of him…
Silviniaco Conti – Was a major player for me pre race and he set off exactly how I thought taking the field along….there is 100% something not right with this horse at present though because his race had been run by about half way and that was way too early to suggest he’d given anything like his proper running! It was one of the reasons why I doubted the Cue Card form from Haydock, suspecting SC wasn’t the same horse….after today I’m convinced there is a major problem with him as everything was right for him today…he got the lead, he goes well at the course and conditions were near on exactly the same as last year…he jumped really well for the amount of time he was competitive and as far as I can recall didn’t clout a fence or anything that made him stop quickly? So a real disappointment and a horse that needs looking at closely…
Al Ferof – Changed yards…..looked impressive first time out as always and has done just about the same as he’s done the previous two years finishing 3rd….beaten 14 and a half lengths in 2013….9 and a half lengths last year and just over 13 this year so no better or worse really, just given his true running and found a couple too good…
The others didn’t look good enough before the race and so it proved, so that brings us to the two who fought out the finish…
Vautour – Probably ran a fair bit better than I expected. I don’t think he jumped the best in the main, again to the left at plenty but he jumped and pulled his way to the front probably a bit earlier than ideal, he was just tanking though and coming to about two out I thought he would go on and win decisively and live up to all the pre race hype from those who firmly believed in him….a bit like at Ascot last time though he appeared to be throwing out the distress signals and just gave way right at the death. I’m not sure what to make of the stamina debate because if there was no problem with it like Walsh has said before, stating he would get 4 miles, then surely he would have seen his last two races out far better than he has….It would be concerning for me for the Gold Cup in March being just 6, but as I said, he surprised me a little and I’m not so sure the Gold Cup dream is a dead one…me personally though would leave it another year. We saw Djakadam run the race of his life as a six year old this year and I think back to the moment in the weighing room after and the disbelief on Ruby’s face at his mount giving it absolutely everything but it not being enough….I just wonder looking at Vautour this year whether that will be in the back of their minds and they give him another year….with having Djakadam for this year do they really need to risk Vautour aswell at this stage of his career?
And finally
Cue Card – Another I didn’t have the faith in and couldn’t see any reason how he could put three failures in this race behind him and win at the 4th attempt….as previously said, I strongly doubted the form of the Betfair Chase and in effect the beating of one rival, a rival who doesn’t look the same horse….we were told the breathing op from last year had made the difference and so it has proved today. Using Al Ferof as the marker as he has ran basically to what he has the last three runnings of this then it’s blatantly clear that Cue Card has improved from last year when he finished behind Al Ferof…..he finished about 8 lengths in front of him in 2013….about 3 lengths behind last year and about 13 lengths in front this year so it’s there in black and white…
So congratulations to team Tizzard, a trainer I really like and Paddy Brennan a jockey I really like and who I thought gave him a cracking ride. I wish them the very best of luck in their quest for the million pound bonus and glory at Cheltenham but still have that nagging doubt, again after today, that he will find one or two too strong in the staying stakes over a couple of extra furlongs at Cheltenham…
Probably a bit cheeky of me to say but as good as the performance was I feel there was a few strokes of luck as looking at the race a fortnight ago, the three horses who looked genuine stayers who would have really tested the stamina of the front two, Coneygree, Don Cossack and Silviniaco Conti all didn’t get to make it the real stamina test I thought it would be for one reason or another….
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