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Sunny bay – at any distance, on any going DM would not have got near Montjeu.
The first is a galloper who needs to dominate, the second is more versatile and has the ability to quicken off a fast pace (and was better anyway according to all ratings other than Timeform). How is it possible that DM could have beaten him?<br>
Luke,
Dettori said the same thing about a whole series of Godolphin horses, every other season, or occasionally within a season, including Balanchine, Halling, Mark Of Esteem, Cape Verdi, Swain, Daylami, Intikhab, Daylami (again) and Dubai Millennium – and mark my words he will say it again as he is very happy to hype stud values for his employers.
You misunderstand Razeen. I am suggesting that Timeform is being inconsistent with itself in that Godolphin horses have particular high rating in relation to the very accurate ratings they otherwise produce. ÂÂÂ
I am using other sources only in comparing like with like.
Razeen,
I resent the implication that I did not want to know the answer to this question. Indeed I asked it precisely because Timeform ratings are so out of synch with the general accuracy of their figures with many Godolphin horses. I am very much afraid I do not have the time to ask rhetorical questions. Jim could have said that he didn’t necessarily agree with all ratings published or that he felt the ratings attributed to DM, Daylami and Intikhab (in particular) were on the high side. He didn’t do this – which is fair enough. But he failed to say how Timeform could rate DM 6lb above his International Classification or for what race they credited him with this figure (presumably his World Cup win, a race in which most others rate him 134 and I can only rate him 135 at best).
I also do not need to be told who Jim is. Far from attacking Timeform I had set out to congratulate them on their fine publications. Jim on the other hand appears to be very defensive/touchy about something. I am not attempting to compete with Jim and sought an honest answer.
With regard to Galileo vs. Nashwan I would not put much between them on their Derby performances (I give Galileo the edge). Galileo is not yet as good as Nashwan finished up, but may well progress to be as good or better.
Nashwan was certainly a better Derby winner than Generous (in my humble opinion). Generous beat a field of non-stayers. The second, third and fourth in that race – Marju, Star Of Gdansk and Hector Protector – never won a race of any description, let alone a Group race, at beyond a mile.
If this were an isolated instance I would not be curious, but it seems typical that Group/Grade 1 winning Godolphin horse are rated much higher than consensus by Timeform. I wondered (and still do) why this is.
(Edited by Steve M at 2:35 pm on June 27, 2001)
finally. I am a little older than you Jim, and my three best Derby winners would be:
1) Sea Bird<br>2) Mill Reef<br>and<br>3) Galileo
So we do agree about something, even if it is only Galileo (who it is difficult to argue about, despite not being owned by Godolphin).
(Edited by Steve M at 10:34 am on June 27, 2001)
…Oh, and in reply to your rather pippy remark – thank goodness I don’t work for you. I very much doubt that I could afford to. I doubt that a Timeform salary could keep my own thoroughbreds in feed!
Thanks for your reply Jim. But in reply to your question to me "what is wrong with Dubai Millenium’s rating?" the International Classification for him is 134, when your rating is 140. 140 is the highest rating posted for him by anyone. You also ask why I rate Montjeu so highly on 138-139. Well you might as well ask yourself, as it is the same as your 138 – which was achieved in his three best races, the Irish Derby, the Arc and the King George. Montjeu’s IC rating for winning the Arc was 135, which is higher than anything achieved by Dubai Millennium by the IC in his career on dirt or turf and the highest rating since Peintre Celebre’s 137.
I take it from what you say that you are happy with your ratings for all of the Godolphin horses mentioned.
The "we" I was referring to is the rest of us – the International Classifications, Post Mark, Raceform and assorted independent professional handicappers.
I can’t believe that you are unaware of these facts.<br>
Lisa talks a good response. Let’s see how she delivers. One thing’s for sure she has a big job in restoring Newmarket to Britain’s greatest racecourse after the way it has been buggered up.
