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Jim McGrath Answers Your Questions

Home Forums Archive Topics Celebrity Q&A’s Jim McGrath Answers Your Questions

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    — Posted by Jay Torbitt on 1:48 am on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim, firstly thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

    What does a typical day working as paddock commentator involve? How much research do you have to do on each horse beforehand, or is a lot of the stuff instantaneous?

    >JMG: Plenty of research, particularly if fields comprise of unraced/lightly raced horses; however day-to-day involvement does mean a lot of form work is already done.

    Plus who annoys you most on the team – does Big Mac wittering on about Paddock Negatives ever get under your skin?!

    >We have a great team: Mac gets under everyone’s skin now and again, but overall makes a tremendous contribution.

    Finally, have you ever visited The Racing Forum? If not, take a look!

    Cheers Jim, keep up the good work. Jay

    —  Posted by Pewter on 10:04 am on June 7, 2001

    What was the most impressive Derby winner you have seen ?

    >I’ve only been watching Derbies ‘live’ for 22 years; of those my top 3 are<br>    1) Shergar (81)<br>    2) Generous (91)<br>    3) Galileo (01) <br>  <br>In percentage terms, what do you think the chances are of someone making a living from gambling ?

           Thank you

    —  Posted by suny bay on 10:27 am on June 7, 2001 <br>what do you think about red carpet,superior premiun and pipalong for the july cup?

    >No chance – back Tillerman (e.w.) instead!

    <br>—  Posted by Steve M on 11:17 am on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim,

    While I am a massive fan of Timeform, particularly the annuals, several of us have had cause to question the ratings allocated to certain Godolphin performers (paticularly those who have/are/were to become stallions).

    The ratings for Dubai Millennium 140, Daylami 138 and Intikhab 135, are all far above their general or even best level of performance, unless you take a peculiar view of certain key races.

    To get this in perspective DM has been put on a par with the likes of Mill Reef, Dancing Brave and Vaguely Noble! Daylami on a par with Nijinsky and Cigar! and Intikhab on a par with Dahlia, Kris, Le Moss, Nashwan, Pebbles, Sir Ivor, Arazi and All Along!! <br>To those of us who care about this sort of thing, the Godolphin ratings look quite frankly mad. Particularly so as one of the best horses in the past 30 years in the shape of Montjeu has been credited with 137 (which is about right, I have him on 138-139)

    >Who are the we/us?? What’s wrong with Dubai Millennium’s rating (arguably too low!!). Have you forgotten Daylami’s King George & Irish Champion Stakes wins. Why have you got Montjeu so high?

    Many handicappers could not give DM more than 134 at his best. Daylami would certainly not deserve more than 130 and Intikhab should not figure on any all-time list as he struggled to achieve ratings in the 120s.

    My question is, do you think that these Godolphin ratings are too high?

    >No, and if you really do – thank goodness you don’t work for us!

    —  Posted by Ted on 12:49 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>I would just like to say that I agree with just about everything Steve M has typed. I would say that Daylami’s rating is far too high and Dubai Millenium wasn’t as great as he was hyped up to be either in my opinion. <br>But my question is, what was your opinion of the channel 4 racing forum? did you consider that the people who used it were in the main a sandwich short of a picnic? <br>I ask this because I seem to remember someone saying that the channel 4 presenters thought that it was a bit of a joke.

    > don’t understand this Ted.

    <br>—  Posted by Razeen on 1:39 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Jim

    When you look at a race and weigh up the chances of each horse winning, what would you say are the four or five most influential factors (e.g. going, course, distance, previous run, trainer)?

    Could you also give a rough percentage mark too (I’m asking a lot) to highlight the importance of each of these factors.

    Many Thanks

    >Going – vital, course – quite important, distance – vital, previous run – debatable, trainer – important.<br>Hope this helps.

    <br>—  Posted by paulbraidley on 1:41 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim & thanks for answering our questions. <br>In your opinion which type of races are best to bet in ie group<br>Also,do you yourself make a profit from horseracing betting and if so typiically how many points per year. <br>Sorry one more ,what your longest losing run? <br>All the best Paul

    > I bet as a serious hobby and aim to make 15% after tax on my turnover: I don’t always achieve this though.

    <br>—  Posted by Elmo on 2:48 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim thanks for your time. <br>Firstly to do with form. Do you think it is important to learn what type of horse is suited to each particular track? <br>If yes how important is this factor in relation to others?

    > Not sure the track has much relevance: the going is far more important.

    Secondly is the reason you don’t always pick paddock negatives to avoid offending the connections of the horse? Also if you do pick it out as a negative do you think you are basically saying the trainer hasn’t done his job properly? <br>Cheers.

    >John Francome does the paddock on most occasions and, in all honesty, does feel that marking a horse with a ‘negative’ can offend. <br>

    —  Posted by Dayna Jane Stirling on 2:56 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hello Jim.

    I spoke to you a couple of weeks ago when you did the live chat over on the Channel 4 website, and you flattered me by telling me I had such a beautiful name.

    Anyway, do you believe, like me, that sectional timing should become a vital tool on every racecourse in Britain? <br>DJS

    > Only after electric timers have been installed first: did you know that 70% of our tracks don’t have any official times.

    <br>—  Posted by Phil Waters on 3:03 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hiya Jim,

    Did you know, that by using just 2 horses, you can link top chaser Flagship Uberalles to the 1997 Derby Winner Benny The Dip?

    The 2 horses are Sad Mad Bad and The Fly.

    Do you think at least 90% of races are linked? For example, Golan, through 15 horses, can be linked to the great Desert Orchid.

    Does that interest you, away from all the mundane daily chores of ratings and tips?

    —  Posted by Zoz on 4:04 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim, thanks for taking the time to do this!

    Ok two questions if you don’t mind….

    First one would be … how did you start working for Channel four and would you have any advice for someone who was interested in working in racing/sports broadcasting

    > Applied for the vacancy created when Ken Butler left in 1980: get as much experience as you can e.g. local radio, point-to-point commentary, local newspaper etc.

    and secondly….

    Which racehorse did/do you like to see race most and why?

    Thanks again! <br> > At the moment = a) Galileo (brilliance) and b) Persian Punch (courage).  All time heroes = Sea Pigeon, Freddie and Arkle.

    — Posted by Dave G on 4:40 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim

    Which would you say, is the horse which disappointed most in not living up to it’s full potential.

    >Apart from any number owned by myself, Celtic Swing, injured in the 2000 Guineas and despite winning the French Derby, never the same again.

    Who would you send a top class flat racehorse to be trained by, given no ties or loyalties to anyone?

    >Sir Michael Stoute.



    —  Posted by Cara on 5:27 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hello jim!! <br>Thanx for taking you time to answer our questions i hope you are well .I was wondering if you could define what is the difference between Careless riding and irresponsible riding?? Also what is you thoughts on dropping of the hands??

    > ‘Careless’ means the manoeuvre was a safe enough idea – just carelessly executed. ‘Irresponsible’ means a) safety was always likely to be breached or b) that trouble would ensue because of the manoeuvre. <br>

    do u think the derby and classics should be run later in the year or at a later stage of the horses career say the classics for 4 year olds and start racing the horses at 2 because they are immature then??

    > No

    and finally what is your thought on younger people and racing do you think there should be more youngsters on the tele presenting.

    > Age is (or should be) largely irrelevant. Simon Holt and myself both started on Channel 4 at the age of 25 (albeit very gradually). If you good enough you are young/old enough.

    what do you look for in a horse running on the allweather compared to a horse running on the grass???

    Many thanx <br>Cara xxxx

    —  Posted by Scoot on 5:43 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim! This question pertains to <br>Flat Racing, What signs do you <br>look for in a horse in the Paddock <br>Area to help you evaluate if the horse is fit and ready to run a "Top" Race that day? "Thanks For Your Time Sir"

    > General impression of well being: quarters well muscled: don’t look at tummies – like humans horses vary enormously in this respect.

    <br>—  Posted by Kathy on 5:58 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hello Jim, and thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

    Firstly, what would you say has been the highest point of your (varied) career to date?

    1) Broadcasting – Inaugural Dubai World Cup main presenter. <br> 2) Breeder – Decorated Hero’s third place in the Breeders Cup. <br> 3) Owner – Toogood To Be True winning at Cheltenham.

    <br>and what one thing (if you had the absolute power) would you like to change about the racing industry in this country at the moment?  

    > introduce a day off in the week for everyone!

    <br>—  Posted by ALI on 6:12 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hello Jim, thanks for your time.

    I personally like the way our classics are set out, the Guineas in early May, the Derby early June and the St Leger in the middle of September. But i think it would benifit racing better if we changed it to this:

    Guineas 1m, run in the middle of May <br>Derby 1m 2f, same date as it is run now <br>St Leger 1m 4f, run in the first wekend of July

    I know this is not going to happen, these races have history and i appreciate that as much as the next person. I was just wondering what your own thoughts on this would be.

    Thanks <br>ALI

    > Don’t agree: we are pandering to USA, who tend to denigrate horses with stamina. Our distance tests/dates are fine.

    —  Posted by Scottish Jamie on 9:16 pm on June 7, 2001 <br>Hi Jim,

    As a breeder, which Stallions would you use if you had unlimited spending power and which would you say offer value for money at the lower end of the scale ?

    > Unlimited spending power – Storm Cat in the USA and Sadler’s Wells in Ireland.<br>   Value for money – Pivotal and Timeless Times.

    I am a member of Elite Racing Club and we were lucky enough to use Grand Lodge for one of our mares last year (before Sinndar) and this season we used Spectrum (before Golan). Now these 2 stallions have had their fees raised (or will have in Spectrum’s case)putting them out of our price range. Do you think fees are too high for horses who have just arrived at stud or who have 1 or 2 early successes and have their fees put through the roof ? <br>Thanks

    > It’s a business, therefore success inevitably means higher prices.

    <br>—  Posted by Wally on 12:43 am on June 8, 2001 <br>Hi Jim,

    How old were you when you got the racing bug?

    > 7!!

    <br>—  Posted by griff11 on 4:34 am on June 8, 2001 <br>Hi Jim, thanks for taking the time for this Q & A.

    1. Recently, Lisa Hancock was in your position of answering the varied questions and she had a number of forum members who were very critical of the facilities at Newmarket and many others have expressed dissatisfaction with facilities and high admission charges at many other courses.

    Prize money is always a contentious issue and you would have to agree that the UK has a lot of ground to make up on many of the major racing countries worldwide and quite honestly some of the prizemoney on offer for actually winning races is disgraceful.

    > No; we have a ‘social security racing system’ with too many horses being subsidised. Limit opportunities and/or horses and prize money would rise. We can’t have it both ways.

    Do you think it is time to totally overhaul the structure of racing and have a betting arrangement such as in Australia, whereby there is a Tote off-course and a Tote + Boards on-course. The new deals being struck will obviously help, but I doubt the general racegoer will actually notice too much difference on-course.

    Regardless of whether it will ever happen, do you think that it would be overall a beneficial change to racing.

    > In theory that’s fine – but tradition is very hard to break. Only 3% of the market goes via the Tote.

    2. Having first hand experience at the ownership side of the game, do you think more should be done to improve hurdles with a view to reducing injuries.

    > Yes, but progress is being made.

    3. What would you consider a good track to start a novice chasers career at.

    > Carlisle (north) and Exeter (south).

    4. Do you consider racing 2 yr olds as being too young, after all some are racing when not actually 2 years old. If they have to race at two, how do you feel about them starting later in the season.

    > Think its okay as it is.

    5. What is your personal view of Summer Jumps Racing.

    > Okay at some courses (those with proper watering facilities).

    6. Should horses be weighed prior to racing and the information made available to the public.

    7. Should Lasix and Bute be allowed in UK racing.

    > No.

    I know, I ramble on a bit, but thanks anyway.


    —  Posted by MarkEE on 7:39 am on June 8, 2001 <br>Hi Jim,

    A light hearted question from me. <br>What’s under McCririck’s hat? (if you’ve ever seen him without one on!)


    > Not a lot!

    —  Posted by Katy on 9:26 pm on June 8, 2001 <br>Hi Jim, thanks for answering our questions,

    My question is, "What things do you look at when choosing a trainer for your horses, and do you buy your horses, if so what do you personally look out for?"

    Thanks Katy

    > Ability and honesty in a trainer. Have opinions on pedigrees but not skilled enough to buy my own  – always ask a second opinion.

    <br>—  Posted by Merlin the Magician on 10:02 pm on June 8, 2001 <br>Hi Jim thanks for your time and knowledge. <br>There are two strings to my bow the first being. <br>TIMEFORM. <br>(a)What percentage of winners does your system return???.

    > 40% + top 2 rated.

    PERSONAL PREFERENCES. <br>(b) The animals that you personally own/share seem to be always trained by the EASTERBYS is this because of logistics (near to where you reside) or based on some other reason ???. <br>Thanks in anticipation. <br>Regards Merlin

    > I’ve got a long-standing relationship with Tim and his parents. But they’re not my only trainers.

    <br>—  Posted by Flagship on 10:19 pm on June 8, 2001 <br>Jim, firstly many thanks for taking the time to answer our questions and I hope you may take time to register as a member of the forum – you could even be number 500!

    You always hear punters moaning in betting shops, and occasionally in the forum or chat that horses are "not off" with jockeys intentionally finding a wall of horses or slowest stretch of turf.

    I would be interested to know how "bent" you think our horse racing is and wondered what thoughts you had on some trainers obvious methods of hiding a horses true potential to gain a favourable handicap mark.

    > The majority of racing is straight, especially compared to some major countries.

    Thanks again for considering our questions and keep up the excellent work on C4 racing……is it right I hear C4 have put in a £1m bid for Alex Hammond to join the team? I have to say she would be more pleasing on the eye than Francome, Down or McCririck.  – Surely not!!

    —  Posted by ALI on 11:41 pm on June 8, 2001 <br>Hello Jim, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

    Sinndar, what a horse. Out of the all the derbys i’ve had the chance to witness live he stands out head and shoulders above the rest. Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Shergar etc were all before my time, i just missed out on Nashwan. Where would you put Sinndar on a par with these past greats.

    Sinndar is thought of as a true champion by everyone i’m shure, but i dont think his reputation is as strong now as it will be in 15 years time, take nothing away, i do think he’s had the credit he deserved, but what i’m trying to say is, as the years pass i think Sinndar will be spoken of in the same way Nashwan and Shergar etc are now, what do you think, if you understand what i’m trying to say.

    <br>Flight Of Fancy – Imagine, if they meet again, who would you put your money on, personally i’d be on Imagine. <br>Cheers <br>ALI  

    > Sorry – Flight of Fancy for me!

    <br>Jim, i typed the above question the night before the Derby and i’m just editing this now after watching Galileo destroy his field. Well, that was no doubt the best Derby winner i’ve ever seen, but wether he’s a better horse than Sinndar we’ll never know. Anyway, the above question still stands. Do you think as the years pass Sinndars reputation will grow stronger and in 10 to 15 years he will be spoken of as a true great, one of the best to ever grace the turf.

    > No: in my opinion a grand horse but not a great one. Not enough variety of performance in terms of trip etc.

    —  Posted by michael on 12:52 am on June 9, 2001 <br>Hi Jim thanks for answering our questions. <br>I would like to know what method do you use for placing your bets as I would imagine if you were seen walking round the betting ring you would have the whole track following you to see what horse you were backing. Also when placing bets have you ever been "knocked backed" by the layers or do you get what you ask for because of who you are and are in a good position to give the bookmakers adverse publicity. <br> > A little of what you describe is true but, generally speaking, provided you don’t try to ‘do’ a bookie he needs you and you him. I bet with all the major firms but occasionally do get knocked back.

    <br>—  Posted by pixo on 9:36 am on June 10, 2001 <br>Hi Jim very nice of you to take the time to answer our questions, thank you.

    It most have been an incredible and unforgettable experience to have worked for one of the all-time greatest of the racing world, I am talking of Phil Bull of course.

    Is there a particular nugget -or two- of his racing wisdom which you hold in high regard that you can pass on to us?


    > His simple logic with regard to factors pertaining to form, i.e. the vital importance of going. Also, his common-sense approach, which didn’t allow sentiment to cloud his judgement.

    <br>—  Posted by Escorial on 9:44 am on June 10, 2001 <br>Thanks for talking the time out Jim.

    A lot of different opinions are being put forth regarding the riding of Fallon this season. I`m one of those that feels he is not yet back to his best and was particularly unimpressed with his riding of Flight Of Fancy in the Oaks. I thought he showed error of judgement in this race. He had a good position coming down to Tattenham Corner but, when Relish The Thought ran a little wide, he tried to go for that gap, knowing full well the horse underneath him was nothing more than a galloper, and does not have the change of pace to take advantage of those gaps.. He was quickly closed in and had to snatch up, as the runners ran back in towards the rail. He then seemed to wait for another gap to appear, instead of angling towards the outside. One thing for sure at Epsom, you are not going to come up the rail and win a race, as gaps are as rare as rocking horse dung. Yet he seemed to be waiting for such a gap. Kinane, who is the best around bar none, just sat on the outside and waited for the front ones to come back and ran down the outside of them whilst Fallon struggled to come around the eventual third. In the next race he seemed to have learned his lesson and produced Top Dirham in exactly the same way Kinane has done on Imagine, winning the race cosily. In the Derby, the first three home all sat on the outside of the field the whole way…..why was Fallon so inept in the Oaks ?…..I cannot believe for one moment that he does not know how to ride Epsom, so what is he missing right now ?….or is he just being mightily unlucky ?.

    At the time of writing, his strike rate, percentage wise, of winners to rides is a paltry 15.8%. When one considers the ammunition he has, regardless of the form of the Stoute team so far, this is hardly the form of a top jockey. Brett Doyle, for instance, is currently showing over 17% with less than half the rides Fallon has had, and probably of a much lesser quality too.

    thanks again…..

    <br> > Agreed that F.O.F. wasn’t Kieren’s finest hour; to my eyes she was unlucky.  However, she’s a big filly who probably wasn’t ideally suited by Epsom’s gradients.

    <br>—  Posted by griff11 on 4:18 pm on June 10, 2001 <br>Hi Jim,

    Do you have an expanded view (not just "Good horse")on Point Given.


    Which do you consider the greatest test of a horse, the UK Triple Crown or the US version?

    > They are both great tests which have lasted over time. <br>

    —  Posted by Montelado on 5:39 pm on June 11, 2001

    <br>Hi and thanks for your time Jim, <br>   this is quite a vague question (maybe too much so) but I was wondering about your rating system – from a point that I would like to be able to start my own but am not sure how. What is the basis of a rating system i.e you see a race and you want to rate it, what are the foundations that must be put in place before any race can be successfully rated?

    Do you have any definite formula that must be applied before you use your own judgement to applied progressive marks, etc. to a horse’s rating?


    > Sorry: this is too involved to give a brief reply.

    <br>—  Posted by Daylight on 6:49 pm on June 11, 2001 <br>Hi Jim & thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

    Do you spend much time on-line a day? <br>If so what sites do you visit and have you ever looked at before?

    > About 20 mins average.  Racing Post, Timeform and Weatherbys.

    —  Posted by Zoz on 8:01 pm on June 11, 2001 <br>Hello me again!!

    After thought question: do you feel markets for Classic races are worth taking on? I don’t pretend to be anything like a bookmaker but I sometimes see odds in Classics that I wouldn’t have expected, do you find they sometimes aren’t what they should be? I suppose the same applies for most big races like the Gold Cup or National and I suppose ante-post markets are always a bit off, so I guess really what I’m saying is do you think that Ante-post markets on such races work out how they should eventually?

    Got there in the end!! Thanks again!

    > Tricky one – if you are on the winner, fine; if not – ouch! In general stick to top form for top races.  Backing maiden-race winners for classics is usually a waste of money e.g. Western Verse 8/1 for 2002 Two Thousand Guineas after York. After Ascot 800/1 wouldn’t tempt most people.

    <br>—  Posted by Chompy Draw Boy on 9:57 pm on June 11, 2001 <br>Hey Jim, <br>here’s my question. How much do you think the draw has an effect in Flat races?

    > Depends on the course, but in some case its vital.

    And do you back Thommo’s Charity bets blind?

    > Don’t be silly!!

    <br>—  Posted by SIR TRISTRAM on 11:51 pm on June 11, 2001 <br>Hello Jim cheers for the time, Do you believe if you watch racing enough, you can tell class from one race? IE. I was able to spot something very special in the performances of Tillerman/King Best/Bosham Mills as just a few in recent times, that on debut, looked to have something that set them aside, this is without consulting ratings or second opinions, just the feeling i sometimes get. Do you get this feeling also, just watching a lowly maiden at Lingfield etc?

    > Yes, the more you watch, the more experienced you become.

    <br>—  Posted by basilreed on 8:22 am on June 12, 2001 <br>hello jim <br>if you were not involved in racing what would you be <br>doing for a living .

    > A professional squash player.

    <br>—  Posted by Sal on 12:19 pm on June 12, 2001 <br>Hi Jim, thanks for putting yourself through this!

    Do you have an opinion about the dominance of the Coolmore stallions in the British and Irish breeding scene?


    > They dominate because they have the best stallion (Sadler’s Wells) by far and also turnover horses who don’t make the grade. Furthermore the tax situation in Ireland is far more advantageous to breeders compared to the UK.

    <br>—  Posted by LUKE on 4:41 pm on June 13, 2001 <br>Jim at Haydock earlier on this year you gave Wandering Light a good mention on the Morning Line and again in the afternoon.He won at 33/1 yet you didn’t back it.Why?

    > Two major negatives (leg injury and going), for all he looked very well handicapped.

    <br>— Posted by Lady Tufton on 4:59 pm on June 13, 2001 <br>Dear Mr McGrath

    Has Timeform changed its methods of asssessment at all over the years and if so how ? or are they pretty much the same as when Phil Bull began the organisation

    <br> > Yes {pretty much the same}

    <br>—  Posted by Nev on 3:09 pm on June 14, 2001 <br>Thanks for your time Jim. <br>Obviously I don’t know how often you bet but my question is, What do you consider the best way to handle losing runs, ie- <br>Do you take a break from betting?  Not really. <br>Do you bet more/less?  Less. <br>Increase/decrease stakes?  Decrease stakes. <br>Look for shorter priced wagers.  No. <br>Many thanks.

    > focus on the Geoff Boycott theory of making one, two, etc, etc. Never chase losses and don’t try and punt your way into form on speculative long shots.

    <br>—  Posted by C Lee on 7:02 pm on June 14, 2001 <br>Hello Jim, <br>in Sprint h’caps explained the author gives approximate allowances for distance beaten on firm & soft ground, for example, <br>1 length firm = 3lb,soft = 2lb <br>3 lengths firm = 7lb,soft =3-4lbs <br>he then say’s to use these as a rough guide on good & heavy going.These allowances are for both 5f & 6f,no account of the extra furlong is taken into consideration,would you go along with the above? <br>Any views on this subject would be appreciated. <br>Thank’s. <br>Colin.

    > Handicapping, like say cookery, is an art based around simple procedures. The best at both are those who vary the recipe from time to time.

    <br>—  Posted by LUKE on 11:17 pm on June 15, 2001 <br>Jim-we have on this forum someone who claims to make 80% profit on turnover.Personally I think this is the greatest load of rubbish ever but what is your opinion and how many punters/gamblers have you met that were capable of making such a profit.

    > None.

    P.S. the individual in question has said the 80% will come from backing over 50 horses and not just one 4/5 shot.

    > Truly astonishing! <br>

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    All thanks go to Sal on this one for setting it up for us! :clap:

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    Sal, I guess Jim couldn’t say no to that "Gorgious Red Headed<br>Body Of Yours Eh" But who could<br>right!! Thank’s Sal, That Was A<br>Good Q+A.

    prince regent
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    <br>are timeforms yearly annuals  increasing or decreasing in sales i wonder???

    Steve M
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    Thanks for your reply Jim. But in reply to your question to me "what is wrong with Dubai Millenium’s rating?" the International Classification for him is 134, when your rating is 140. 140 is the highest rating posted for him by anyone. You also ask why I rate Montjeu so highly on 138-139. Well you might as well ask yourself, as it is the same as your 138 – which was achieved in his three best races, the Irish Derby, the Arc and the King George. Montjeu’s IC rating for winning the Arc was 135, which is higher than anything achieved by Dubai Millennium by the IC in his career on dirt or turf and the highest rating since Peintre Celebre’s 137.

    I take it from what you say that you are happy with your ratings for all of the Godolphin horses mentioned.

    The "we" I was referring to is the rest of us – the International Classifications, Post Mark, Raceform and assorted independent professional handicappers.

    I can’t believe that you are unaware of these facts.<br>

    Steve M
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    …Oh, and in reply to your rather pippy remark – thank goodness I don’t work for you. I very much doubt that I could afford to. I doubt that a Timeform salary could keep my own thoroughbreds in feed!

    Steve M
    • Total Posts 99

    finally. I am a little older than you Jim, and my three best Derby winners would be:

    1) Sea Bird<br>2) Mill Reef<br>and<br>3) Galileo

    So we do agree about something, even if it is only Galileo (who it is difficult to argue about, despite not being owned by Godolphin).

    (Edited by Steve M at 10:34 am on June 27, 2001)

    prince regent
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    i second your opinion as numerous others will  he is a very petty man  to dismiss  without giving reason

     timeform  has lost much of its impartial objectivity  over the years   its become more of an advertisment agency  than a form ratings organistion  coincidentally some may say  with mr mcgraths hands on the rudder

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    extremely interesting read.  Agreed that Jim Mcgrath’s riposte was petulent, that Dubai Millenium should have a higher rating.

    but Steve, just interested in your opinion on how far  you rate Galileo ahead of your beloved Nashwan.  

    C Lee
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    Handicapping,cookery.<br>Now i know where i’m going wrong,i wish i’d paid more attention to Home Economics when i was at school.I shall sign up to the first available night class at my local college.   🙂

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    I agree that Jim had to defend his rating of the Godolphin horses but his reply to Steve M was a bit arrogant if you ask me. This would be acceptable if he really did know far more than anyone else, but I have seen him made to look a fool (like the rest of us) on a number of occasions on tv over the years and so I did not expect his answer to be as it was.<br>My own question was a bit tongue in cheek and he avoided answering by claiming he didn’t understand it. Yeh, allright Jim I believe you.<br>Maybe Jim didn’t expect so many questions as he seemed to keep some of his replies very short. Having said that I think he deserves credit for agreeing to answer all the questions, even if we did not all get the answer we expected.

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    I was wondering why Jim missed out Troy in his most impressive Derby winners list, but he did say he had been watching for the last 22 years and I think Troy was 23 Derby’s ago. Maybe I should read more carefully in future.

    (Edited by Ted at 1:36 pm on June 27, 2001)

    Steve M
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    I resent the implication that I did not want to know the answer to this question. Indeed I asked it precisely because Timeform ratings are so out of synch with the general accuracy of their figures with many Godolphin horses. I am very much afraid I do not have the time to ask rhetorical questions. Jim could have said that he didn’t necessarily agree with all ratings published or that he felt the ratings attributed to DM, Daylami and Intikhab (in particular) were on the high side. He didn’t do this – which is fair enough. But he failed to say how Timeform could rate DM 6lb above his International Classification or for what race they credited him with this figure (presumably his World Cup win, a race in which most others rate him 134 and I can only rate him 135 at best).

    I also do not need to be told who Jim is. Far from attacking Timeform I had set out to congratulate them on their fine publications. Jim on the other hand appears to be very defensive/touchy about something. I am not attempting to compete with Jim and sought an honest answer.

    With regard to Galileo vs. Nashwan I would not put much between them on their Derby performances (I give Galileo the edge). Galileo is not yet as good as Nashwan finished up, but may well progress to be as good or better.

    Nashwan was certainly a better Derby winner than Generous (in my humble opinion). Generous beat a field of non-stayers. The second, third and fourth in that race – Marju, Star Of Gdansk and Hector Protector – never won a race of any description, let alone a Group race, at beyond a mile.

    If this were an isolated instance I would not be curious, but it seems typical that Group/Grade 1 winning Godolphin horse are rated much higher than consensus by Timeform. I wondered (and still do) why this is.

    (Edited by Steve M at 2:35 pm on June 27, 2001)

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    :clap: Thanks Sal and Jim :clap:

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    I think Steve M has a definite point regarding Intikhab who must be the most over-rated horse of the last decade.In my mind there is a big doubt about Dubai Millenium,his Grp 1 wins at 3 were on bottomless ground<br>against a handful of opponents.The World Cup is run at a time when most European horses are just being prepared for the new season.<br>Forget the Godolphin hype after DM died Frankie said "he was one of the best horses I ever rode".<br>One of the best.

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