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I think the’d be 4 million locals would argue with you about the Cox Plate being the best race. The Melbourne cup is not only Melbourne’s top race it’s the Entire countries unless of course you live in Perth where they have other ideas.
HGM, if you honestly believe that, then, no offense, but you are clueless re racing in Australia. Our WFA racing is the best racing in our country, not our Hcp racing. Whilst the MC is time honoured and prestigeous (down here anyway), it is a hcp. Anyone here, who knows anything about class racing, knows that the WS Cox Plate (2040m)is the best quality race (9 times out of ten) each year. Our WFA ranks at that distance are at their lowest for many years, esp with SYT now gone. Sure, a huge % of our WFA "stars" do race in the MC (many get weighted out of it) but that is fue to the fact that it is worth $6M. If it was worth $2M I assure you that it wouldn’t happen.
I love the fact that the race has turned global. it will force us to change the way we breed or we give all the $$ overseas. As a punter it’s great, o/s horses overpriced.
Let’s also remember that it’s a HANDICAP. Our BEST race is the Cox Plate, not the Melbourne Cup.
And I know that you must be stiring the pot re Frankel & SNA. None would get close to winning a MC. They are rated so high that they would have to carry 60kg+..
What happened to SYT the over hyped aussie horse? I suppose if he wins America’s biggest race if franks Euro horses as the best. Convenient thogh that it is also the worst BCC ever. If he gets beaten he will be the over hyped aussie horse again…
Very goog Jolly but a little less mayo mate. Our English friends don’t like it when a horse is over hyped. Let’s be fair, yes, Kurate Queen had won $1.6m but most of that was won in a restricted 2yo race. She ia smart but she ran up to her best today. The rest of the field was very average. Not saying that they aren’t horses of ability but no G1 winners there, bearely any group winners. She scares away the good horses. Do you think that the shiek will allow Sepoy to race against her??? I yhink not.
Black Caviar won as she liked, as she ought to have. She is clearly the best sprinter in the world, may even be the best horse though we will never know as her & Frankel & Danedream will never meet in a race.
Thos that say that Rocket Man was unlucky in Japan must have been wtaching a different race from the one I saw. In the race I saw he was under pressure before the corner and whilst he did meet with some mild interference, he was never travelling like a winner, just more hype by the media.
Unfortunately there are a lot of haters out there and also those that create hype. Porr So You Think has suffered much "hate" from over hype. He is a champion race horse here in Oz and, on his current form, probably the best 2000m turf horse in the world but he isn’t lengths & lengths above horses in Europe where that middle range is much stronger than the pitiful level at home. I, for one am glad that he has acquitted himself very well, his worst performance a fast finishing 4th in the fastest run ARC.
Apologies for running off direction, back to the mare…. She has much improvement and we are all very, very lucky to see her race, a once in a lifetime sprinter that’s for sure…
Hype created by Coolmore no doubt, not the horse’s fault. He has been fantastic in every start in the UK. I wish they’d just let him run wothout the pace maker.
Not in "Frankel" class. No, he’s not. So You Think has won 8 Group 1 races against open age at WFA, Frankel has won one, against a horse that turned out to be lame. Frankel’s connections wish they had the same Group 1 record as So You Think..
the Derby, the Arc, the Breeders Cup Classic, the American Triple Crown.
Can we please get a grip. If you are saying that the great races are 10-12f, why are you including restricted races???
Derby & TC races are for 3yos only!! You only have to be the best of your generation to win those.
I could be real cruel and add the Arc is also resticted as it doesn’t allow geldings…
And the BCC is on dirt (generally)!!
Whether Frankel is an all time great is open to conjecture IMO but I’m not letting that stop me from enjoying his races.
BTW Ginger, SYT NEVER won a G1 in Oz over a mile. His form over that distance is not in the same ball park as Frankel’s. He ran 5th in the 2000 G equivalent (Caulfield G) behind SSB of all horses. He also ran 2nd in a Hcp G1 2 weeks after his 1st Cox Plate win. Nothing to campare to Frankel’s 2000G win nor his destruction of CC…
For lastword…
The forward of "Thoroughbred Champions: Top 100 Racehorses of the 20th Century" notes that "After Secretariat’s triumph in the Triple Crown, Bill Nack asked the elderly Francis Dunne, then a steward in New York, whether Man O’War or Secretariat was the greatest horse that he had ever seen. "Neither," said Francis. "I saw Phar Lap."
"If every horse was at the best of their abilities, Frankel would beat any animal from 6-10 furlongs in my opinion, and that includes that Australian thing… I doubt it would get within a few lengths of the best horse Sir Henry Cecil has ever seen (take not of what Sir Henry says by the way). "
Which one? So You Think or Black Caviar? IMO Frankel a much better chance of beating SYT over 10F than beating BC over 6F but I’m just a biased Aussie.
Frankel was awesome in the Sussex. One question I do have, and I’m sure that some knowledgeable forumite will have the answer, is how the time compared on the track to standard and the class taking into account the going?
As for lastword.. I’ll take American racing seriously when they get rid of the the 2 D’s… Dirt & drugs…
Super, super impressive. He made an exceptional horse look 3rd rate.
If a 2000m clash with SYT is on the cards that is mouth watering… Might finally get a decent price over there about SYT
Frankel does appear to have an unbelieveable form line heading into this what with soundly defeating the July Cup winner & the King George winner, both great form races for beating possibly the best miler in the UK in Canford Cliffs…lol
Having said all that, according to many, Frankel is the 2nd coming and if that is the case, he should be winning this easliy.
I must say that for me this is the most anticipated race of the year. We’ll finally get what I believe is a true form line for Frankel. Regardless of the weight pull, if he beats CC he could very well be "all that"..
Dream Ahead was awesome. A very good ride too, only bad luck threatened to beat her. Turn of foot was special from the 200m to the 100m.
I think a lot of the Aussies don’t handle the Newmarket undulations. Choisir had run 3rd in a Caulfield Guineas (1600m) & Starspangled banner won that race, Alverta had also won over more than 1400m. (note that Scenic Blast ran a distant 2nd in an EI weakened CG).They handled the tough 1200m better than the other southerners whom all had 1200m form at home or at Ascot.
Would Dream Ahead have troubled Black Caviar today? At Newmarket, probably, she isn’r proven over further than an Ozzie 1200m. At Flemington I dare say he fights out a distant 2nd with Hay List
And if he came back and won everything at four you would say "he was a great champion, but only for two years and so on and on and on…." With such arguments as yours there is no winning.
andyod, you don’t know me so, please, don’t pretend to know what I think.
If he cam back at 4 and dominated open age WFA G1s that would have been great, better than doing it at 3 when he can beat up on contemporaries and older horses with a weight advantage.
Believe it or not, I’m not a bagger. I just can’t fathom why on earth people in Europe (& the US for that matter) believe that 3yo racing is the be all & end all, including a 3yo racing in open age. You have so many great horses race in your part of the world but are robbed of continuity year after year by greedy studs & breeders. Hoe can you even measure how good a horse is compared to others when it just a continual conveyor belt year after year with different stars?
Why not race on? I mean, his owners aren’t really strappcash are they?
Unfortunately breeding rules the horse racing world, no where more so than in Europe.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to see if he could have been an all time great? And before you answer he was, get real, he had a handful of starts as a 3yo. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bagging him, he was a great champion… for one season. Nothing like seeing one come back for more season after season after season..
"Mate So You Think won’t beat Frankel if he has a three length start. He wouldn’t have beaten Sea The Stars or Zarkava either"
Is that an opinion or a staement Ian?
Re Frankel, I hope that we find out. I’d be interested to see what you’ve based your opinion on. I’ve based mine on So You Thinks record at 2000m. I can only guess that you’ve based yours on Frankel beating up other 3yos over a mile? Will be interesting to see if that form gets franked.
Re STS & Z – we will never know. Over 2000m at the same age, thus level weights, save for the fillies allowance, I think that it would be very close. Neither raced after their 3yo season so who knows what they would have done at 4 or 5.
The British & American fasination with 3yo racing intrigues me..
Some interesting posts labelling all Aussie posters here as "having a chip on their shoulder" or being loud mouthed. I think you will find that all countries have posters that argue intelligently & others that are ignorant. Where is Mr Wilson by the way? How dare a horse from the colonies beat a Derby/Arc winner!!
I don’t know why some people seem to think that hype surrounding So You Think is his fault! He tries his best every start. No matter who he has raced he has raced with distinction. No, he isn’t the 2nd coming, how often does that happen? A French 3yo will win the Arc (well, a 3yo at least), when was the last time that this DIDN’T happen? The weight scale favours them. A pity Europe’s best race is a restricted one.. but that is another story.
If So You Think doesn’t run in the Arc it isn’y HIM whom is doging, it is Coolmore, the same responsible re the hype!
So You Think did all he could on Saturday, he beat the untouchable Derby/Arc winner. I’ve got no doubt that he could beat Frankel over 2000m, no doubt at all, especially if they continue to ride him (Frankel) in the absurd way.
I hope they take him to the Arc but they probably won’t. Hopefully a 3rd Cox Plate then but it won’t be the same without Bart.
By the way, while I aknowledge that both Sea The Stars & Zarkarva where fantastic horses, I think that Shaby (?) summed it up pretty well. They didn’t race after 3 as many Euro champions don’t, SMS may regret running WF but I applaude the decision to continue with him.
shaby,
Things are done differently in Oz. Trainers here use races as part of the training program for a horse’s final goal/s.
In answer to your question, not really. The only 2400m race is the Caulfield Cup, a G1 hcp. No point running him in that or else he may get a penalty for winning which would increase his weight for the Melbourne Cup. There is the Moonee Valley Cup over 2600m but no prestige there and it is a hcp also with the same risk of penalty. There is also the Geelong Cup which Americain & Media Puzzle both won enroute to their Melbourne Cup wins but they ran in them because they needed a penalty to ensure a start in the Melbourne Cup.
So You Think’s campaign last Oct-Nov was soley aimed at winning the Cox Plate G1 WFA 2040m and then the Melbourne Cup. By winning the WFA G1 & G2 races on the way, no penalty could be incurred for his Melbourne Cup weight.
The only 2 decent WFA G1 2400m in Australia are the Sandown Classic, run 2 weeks after the Melbourne Cup and the BMW Stakes run at Rosehill in March.
All of the Oct-Nov racing is aimed soley at 3 races, the Caulfield Cup, The Cox Plate & the Melbourne Cup.
I believe that Cummings always had the Melbourne Cup in the back of his mind with So You Think as Bart won’t have many more chances to add to his legacy, he’s getting on you know, around 82.
It is a shame that So You Think won’t be back to try for a third successive Cox Plate to equal the great Kingston Town as he would walk it in, not much talent beyond our sprinters at the moment.
Our staying ranks are putrid so a horse that can run a strong 2000m – 2400m can win the Melbourne Cup if they have a combination of the class & right weight.
I hope that clears up some of your queries & doesn’t add to them!
