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About 1970? I was asked to help with a Biorhythem belever in datta comparing horses form as against there triple critical days.<br>I remember that Grundy won the Derby and was running on a brilliant time for him.as against all the other suported runners.
The full story was in a magazine called the Revalie,
I then spent considerable time comparing the bios with the return favs for that year, to see if there was any colation.
To much work. and not the eqipment that is available now so the results were not conclusive I will say though that <br> my wife noticed that on the fridays before the Derby my dates showed that I would not have got ensured to go out if in Japan.
I ignored the data and finished up smashing my BMW into my wifes austine.:biggrin: .
Cubone
fully agree with what you say Barry hope the kids and wife is well.
Interesting times ahead.
Any No 1 pitches for sale.
Cubone.
Thank you wit for your very proffeshional reply.
I was of course stating that no defaulter in history has ever been bailed out by another ,but I should have made clear that I was refering to Gambling and its history.
I am not sure if the stimulation of an exchange market is actually illegal.
For example it would not be illegal for members of staff from playing the same markets. although it may not be ethical.<br>No doubt this is the erea the Gambling Bill will look at.
These are very worrying times for our THING,
Cubone<br>
I was told that the association of Exchnages were to front the salvage but betfair have done so on there own I can only say that no one in history has done such a thing and there have been many Bookmakers default during the past 50 years. and at no time did Hills or Ladbrokes say a word about integrity.
For those who beleaved in a challenge to the betfair monoploy you can forget it. im afraid.
Betfair will reign supreame for years to come and the offcourse industry can increase there one armed bandits.
Cubone<br>
Is it true that the Association of Exchanges, Betfair and Betdaq are to refund all Sporting Option clients who are owed up to maximum of £1000. as a proof of the associations integrity.
Cubone.
Cormack … if you are an eachway punter then some races there will be a different place structure to others this will be based on the price being offered the favourite.<br>So in fact it will be the end of eachway betting.for a large anmount of UK punters.<br>The draw will also, have a massive inflence on the prices, being offered the end of the day the prices being offered will not be better than the ones being offered at present.
Q What price would the 7th winner of Detori,s been.
Cubone.
what I was saying my friend Cormack.
Some of the prices on betfair would be a very dangerious system if the best price offered was only to a minute amount.<br>ie 450/1 to £2.
In a Betting Ring the small Bookmakers prices are ignored and only the larger rails and board Bookmakers prices are used.<br>As I see it if the large offcourse industry did create Industy prices it would not be long before the small indipandant offcourse Bookmakers ofered there clients the racecourse Starting Prices that would give the smaller Bookmakers an advantage.over the big three.
You must understand that the majority of horserace gamblers still bet in the traditional way ie Betting Shops
Although I see that exchanges are attempting to move into this market also with there telephone services.
Nothing wrong with free competition.
Cubone.
I respect your oppinion Cormack but what prices would you return an outsider. and the Exchange. that is being offered at 450/1 to £2.<br>300/1 to £4.and 175/1 to a Tenner.
Cubone.:biggrin:
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In the 1800th century punters would bet with Bookmakers with there prices nailed to Oak trees at Hyde Park Corner, and the Myndon in Leeds.<br>It wasnt until 1790 that the god father of horserace Bookmaking began to offer prices on horses against the field instead of match betting. his name was Ogden.<br>The prices offered at Speakers corner where all in run or not, and the industry itself realised that that situation could not last forever.<br>There was also a stance by the police to move the existing Bookmakers away from these sites. <br>The majority moved into buildings, the best known being the Alliance Club and The Bentinck.<br>Although raided on a regular basis illegal Betting continued.<br>During the period a firm of Bookmakers called Valentine and Wright decided to offer there clients the same odds being offered at the racecourses by the followers of Ogden.<br>Adverts began to appear in the sporting papers, stating that all bets placed with them would be governed by a price calculated by the press and known as the returns.<br>Starting Price, the price governed at the time that the race commenced.<br>It would appear that the first official starting price was in the 1883 Evening News. this took off overnight and was excepted by the general public as fair.<br>The circulation of the paper doubled.<br>Most of the Sporting Papers seemed to disapear during the early 1900s until there was only the Sporting Life and Sporting Cronical.<br>However it was not until 1926 that both of these papers returned a uniformed return.<br>The fact that the Starting Price has carried on to the present day clearly indicates the integrity of the system.<br>During the time there have been so little actual abuse, considering the transactions that have taken place, that it will be very dificult to find a replacement.<br>History shows that the first real breech of the integrity occured in 1927 at a small gaff track called Tenby, where the starting price returner and a Bookmaker, conspired to return a very strongly fancied favourite at 16/1.<br>The honour of the offcourse industry was such that all winning bets where paid in full.<br>In the 40s the leader of the rings Maxie Parker bagan the system known as the Knock Out, where large amounts of money would be placed at SP and a conspiracy of oncourse traders would force the prices out.<br>There have been a few coups where the starting price structure has been targeted.<br>1953 Francasal ,,Bath where an attempt to sever the telephone lines to stop the free flow of hedging money.occured. un succesful.<br>The Gay Future scam, also failed.<br>However if you count the races where the general public have been fully satisfied with the system, the amount of manipulation is insignificant.
What has happened to the industry in the 21st century that evokes the possibility of this proven system being changed.<br>a drop in attendace at racecourse by actual gamblers, this has resulted in a reduction in the profit margins that the offcourse industry are reliant.<br>What the offcourse industry must realise is that the betting public must be convinced that the starting prices are indipendant of control by the big Bookmakers other than there general right to hedge into the market.<br>No one would be happy to see a situation where the powerful conglomerates can control the prices returned without the method of hedging.<br>There have been periods during the past 30 years where returnes have been shortened by stealth against the interest of the betting public. and all governments what ever parties, have shown concern.<br>We now have a new phenomonum, that is creating a weakening of the oncourse structure, Exchanges, this concept is so popular for section of the betting public that now even fewer gamblers are frequenting the betting rings. this has resulted in margins dropping to a very dangerious level.<br>But nothing has changed in the starting price structure that stops the powerful offcourse industry from hedging into the oncourse rings and therefore controlling there liabilities.
Governments since the 1928 Tote Bill, have fully endoresed the nead for the indipendant free market of the Starting Price structure and if they look carefully at Parliaments intention when endorsing the Starting Price structure they will see that this will be best left alone.
It will never be in the public interest for the Big Three Bookmakers to control the returns themselves.
Cubone.<br>
dung.. I agree partly but isnt it fair to say that you can only protect the punter so much, he also should know if he is being abused and I am sure that the industry watchdogs, Government,, that have a duty to see fair play would bring it to there attention,,, for some time now backing horses has only been the method of inducing punters into the shops so that they play on more lucrative games.<br>There is a good argument that the % profit of the racing industry should be very competative, and in fact it may well become a loss leader. if the exchange service is fully introduced into the SP structure.
We have a Tote system, why not an indipendant SP structure,
An industry Price structure created by the offcourse industry is more of a worry to punters than the other two.<br>In my oppinion.
Cubone.
Dung… what is wrong with the Starting Price structure that exists at present.
Say 40 Bookmakers all independant of each other creating a market, that has stood the teat of time for over 100 years.
If the big three wish to shape the market to safegaurde there liabiilities they can hedge into that market.
With the introduction of the very competative exchanges the on course market is now trading to a less % than they did before the introduction of those exchanges <br>The alternative is a Industry SP controlled by the big two.
How can that be in the interest of the offcourse punter.
Parliament since 1928 have fought very powerfully to maintain the independance of the SP structure.
What is wrong with Racecouse Starting Prices, and Industry Prices, and Exchange Prices, the more the merrier.
Competition Rules. or so it should.
Cubone.
