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Yawn !
I have no interest in getting into a slanging match of abuse with you,fivelongdays,and you can bury your head in the sand and dream about Kauto Star being the greatest if you wish…the record books show otherwise,and his actual career results,in their entirity,are there to be seen by all and sundry…whilst Denman prevailed three times out of four in their own private battles, and, even Long Run prevailed three times out of five also !
So do you think that Silviniaco Conti can win the 2013 Gold Cup ?
If you say so,Gingertipster !
What…no apology for getting your facts wrong about the weights carried by Denman in both his Hennessy Gold Cup wins ?
Gingertipster..before "trying" to condescend me,may I suggest you check your FACTS !
Denman carried the SAME top weight of 11st 12lbs in both Hennessy Gold Cup wins,and, everyone is quite aware that Kauto Star would have been unable to give weight away and win, which is why they kept him away from handicaps throughout his career,despite being entered in the Betfred Gold Cup Chase most years.
I understand far more than you give me credit for !
You follow ?
Mill House,obviously,50 years ago by the time 2013 arrives !
Did you see that race too ?
His trainer,Fulke Walwyn,who had also been associated with the great Golden Miller,fully expected him to reciprocate his achievements and win the next four Gold Cups also,stating that Mill House was the best chaser ever seen !
Those of us there know what happened next..don’t we ?
Gingertipster…I suggest you have a good look at both Hennessy Gold Cup races in question !
Denman was far more impressive in 2007 than he was in 2009, and gave Sam Thomas an armchair ride destroying the field from way out,whereas Ruby Walsh had to get serious with him and bustle him up for ages when he won as an inferior horse to the one we had all witnessed before.
Ask his trainer and owners…they will put you right!
He was never the same horse as he had been up to and including the 2008 Gold Cup when UNDEFEATED over fences.
That is a tough nut to crack,wyldesyde…to show that I am curious I will guess Freddie Starr and Noel Murless as the answers and will take my hat off to whoever gets this right !
Admiralofthefleet,please do not attempt to victimise me here….I merely responded to elgransenors sweeping statement that "Kauto Star was the best chaser seen in the past 40 years" and it escalated from there !
There is no harm done with healthy discussion about the matter and if you want to create a thread about that…be my guest..though I feel everything has been said about it all now,and we are just entering the world of "tautology".
Miss Woodford,the Grand National has not had fatalities "every year" and if you research other races also run at Aintree you may find that they have had them just as often over the past 50 or so years,both prior to the fences being modified and since they were.
Of course,the Grand National receives the most coverage in the press,but they merely use it as the scapegoat for National Hunt Horse Racing in general !
Do you want it abolished then ?
Remember,however,once "they" get a foot in the door…..then, before you know it, the "Sport" itself will become extinct too !
We can never write-off Long Run as he has been nothing if not consistent and Sam Waley Cohen has done his level best on him and won the 2011 Gold Cup fair and square,yet I can understand why many may feel that jockeys such as AP McCoy and Barry Geraghty might get more out of the horse.
Next year’s Gold Cup still remains a puzzle and any of about 7 or 8 horses could win it..the next 3 months should be very interesting in the build-up to it,with Ireland having their best chance for 7 years.
One thing is certain…the winner is unlikely to prove to be anywhere near as good as the 1963 winner was !
The irony is,paulostermeyer,that I never bet on supposedly All-Weather Racing anyway…though better to see some action than none at all,and it keeps the livelihoods of those involved going,even though attendances are usually quite sparse compared to Turf Racing.
An unlucky day for Nicky Henderson today as Snake Eye,starting at 1/5, was edged out by a neck with 25 lengths back to the third though it paid the usual meagre 1.02 Tote Place whilst Kells Belle,at 7/4, broke down before the last hurdle and was pulled up by Barry Geraghty.
"Kauto Star didn’t enjoy Cheltenham" IS an under-statement and the Cheltenham Festival is the pinnacle of any NH horses career AND Kauto Star could only win twice from seven Festival appearances !
Contrast that with the greatest ever chaser,Arkle,who won four out of four there,and everyone around at the time knows that would have been seven from seven had his career not been curtailed aged 9,whilst Mill House would have won five times there,had Arkle never existed,and Golden Miller won five times from six Festivals also !
You can talk up Kauto Star’s King George wins as much as you like but he was no more impressive than the likes of Mill House,Mandarin,Captain Christy and Desert Orchid etc had been there before on the occasions they ran in the race,whilst Arkle was conceding 21lbs to his opposition when he came home alone in 1965,and a cracked pedal bone was the only reason he was caught and beaten half a length in his final race in 1966,still conceding 21lbs to the runner-up !!
It seems to be a matter of convenience to state that Denman could not have won going right-handed….we can never know as they never raced each other there,and by the time Denman did run at Punchestown he was a shadow of his former self.
We will just have to agree to disagree, though I am happy that Denman proved the better horse three times out of the four they met as that is ALL we will ever have to go on.
As for Silviniaco Conti….he won well enough but I personally don’t see him winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Denman was not beaten for pace in the Sun Aliance Novices Hurdle as he finished second there,his only ever defeat over hurdles and had the rest of the field well behind!
How many times was Kauto Star beaten in contrast ?
Denman had Kauto Star beaten at ANY distance you care to mention in the 2008 Gold Cup as he just could not get past him at any stage..trying as hard as he did..and that is why Neptune Collonges was able to get closer to him at the end of the race…if Kauto had not tried to take Denman on then he would probably have finished a few lengths in front of Neptune Collonges as opposed to a short head..but no further !
The "laughing stock" is anyone still trying to believe that Kauto Star was better than Denman !
The results between them conclusively PROVE he was not,whilst Denman was UNBEATEN over fences prior to his debilitaing heart problem,whereas Kauto Star had been exposed on far too many occasions,which seem to have been conveniently forgotten about,despite his 16 Grade 1 wins !
Thanks for correcting me Steeplechasing…Maths and Spelling are two of my stong points usually and stats too !
Indeed,Crisp carried 12 stone and was number 1 on the racecard whilst Red Rum carried 10 stone 5lbs and was number 8 on the racecard !
23lbs it was and as I stressed earlier Crisp’s was the best performance since the days of Golden Miller,though it was Reynoldstown who last won carrying 12st 2lbs in 1936 !
Williescue…you don’t get my angle ?
Kauto Star’s best at Cheltenham was better than Denman’s ??
They met 4 times at Cheltenham and Denman beat him on 3 of those occasions,even after his debilitating heart problems !
What does that tell you ?
It’s a pity the wealthy Sheikhs don’t show the same interest in NH racing as they do on the Flat otherwise they could "step in" !
Then again would any of us really want it called …
The Emirates Grand National ?
The Etihad Grand National ?
The Burj-El-Arab Grand National ?
One of the top bookmakers look most likely to get involved,though what a travesty that it joins the FA Cup Final in leaving the BBC!
The great memories of the 60s,70s and 80s can never be forgotten !
