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Actually it’s not true, Manikato. Winx is not Timeform’s top rated turf horse.
Winx is 134, Battaash is 135+ and Lady Aurelia 135. Even if adding the female allowance Lady Aurelia still comes out top.
Oh i see this has been updated..Hahaha Baataash and Lady Aurelia ahead of Winx…Timeform were so desperate for a European ahead of the Australian. Well there you go folks that proves once and for all how completely useless timeform is. The little known ‘ if it wins in Europe plus 10 lbs’…An absolute joke…Battaash 8 starts no Group 1 wins £ 250 000, Lady Aurelia 2 Group 1 wins £ 500 000. Winx 12 Group 1 wins £8 million…Bahahaha
You shouldn’t even dare to compare a proven 6-year old with a lightly raced 3-year old. I don’t care what they achieve at two, it’s interesting to see how they perform at 3, 4 and even 5. But Battaash is stil just a baby. Let’s see how good he is when he steps up in trip and class. So far he is okay with room for improvement, nothing else.
Actually it’s not true, Manikato. Winx is not Timeform’s top rated turf horse.
Winx is 134, Battaash is 135+ and Lady Aurelia 135. Even if adding the female allowance Lady Aurelia still comes out top.
Oh i see this has been updated..Hahaha Baataash and Lady Aurelia ahead of Winx…Timeform were so desperate for a European ahead of the Australian. Well there you go folks that proves once and for all how completely useless timeform is. The little known ‘ if it wins in Europe plus 10 lbs’…An absolute joke…Battaash 8 starts no Group 1 wins £ 250 000, Lady Aurelia 2 Group 1 wins £ 500 000. Winx 12 Group 1 wins £8 million…Bahahaha
You shouldn’t even dare to compare a proven 6-year old with a lightly raced 3-year old. I don’t care what they achieve at two, it’s interesting to see how they perform at 3, 4 and even 5. But Battaash is stil just a baby. Let’s see how good he is when he steps up in trip and class. So far he is okay with room for improvement, nothing else.
You shouldn’t even dare to compare Battaash or Lady Aurelia with a Champion…. ;) This is my point to rate these higher than a 12 time Group 1 winner is ludicrous…
It’s a fair point that Winx deserves to be rated amongst the top if not the best turf horse last year. It’s just that although Australia has the occaisional exceptional performer, apart from sprinting the overall quality is not there – so it’s difficult to judge just how good the top ones are… And those good sprinters seem to have disappeared now you’ve changed the drugs rules.
Black Caviar came over here and only just scrambled home at Ascot. Needing the sex allowance to finish a total of 3/4 length ahead of 3rd Restadargent and only a length better horse than Soul; two second tear European sprinters. But it’s not fair to judge Black Caviar on that form, just as it’s not fair to judge Highland Reel on his Australian 3rd to Winx. Timeform had Black Caviar as running 13 lbs below her best and Highland Reel as running 10 lbs below his. Horses are not machines, well; may be Winx is. Her consistencey is absolutely outstanding, but consistencey does not improve a horse’s rating.
Thing about Australian racing is it’s less competitive. European and American racing has many more horses rated at 128 to 135. Winx has a formidable record, but she is yet to beat anything that put up a Timeform rating more than 126 – Black Heart Bart. Kermadec 125 and Hartnell – a horse that Winx has beaten several times – has put up ratings no more than 124. Ratings of 126 to 124 are not good enough to win even an average renewal of open Group 1 races at 1m to 1m4f in Britain. Winx has beaten those horses easily, but because of that lack of competitiveness it’s harder to put a definite figure on how good she is. Timeform are relying a lot on times and their 134 is taken from a heavy ground success over a horse that ran in their opinion to 118. Heavy going results are again imo harder to quantify.
It is very possible Winx is worth 134, and I for one hope she can prove herself against better rivals somewhere. It’s just at the moment imo it’s not as reliable a rating as Almanzor’s 133, because of the quality of horse he was beating.
Value Is EverythingActually it’s not true, Manikato. Winx is not Timeform’s top rated turf horse.
Winx is 134, Battaash is 135+ and Lady Aurelia 135. Even if adding the female allowance Lady Aurelia still comes out top.
Oh i see this has been updated..Hahaha Baataash and Lady Aurelia ahead of Winx…Timeform were so desperate for a European ahead of the Australian. Well there you go folks that proves once and for all how completely useless timeform is. The little known ‘ if it wins in Europe plus 10 lbs’…An absolute joke…Battaash 8 starts no Group 1 wins £ 250 000, Lady Aurelia 2 Group 1 wins £ 500 000. Winx 12 Group 1 wins £8 million…Bahahaha
You shouldn’t even dare to compare a proven 6-year old with a lightly raced 3-year old. I don’t care what they achieve at two, it’s interesting to see how they perform at 3, 4 and even 5. But Battaash is stil just a baby. Let’s see how good he is when he steps up in trip and class. So far he is okay with room for improvement, nothing else.
You shouldn’t even dare to compare Battaash or Lady Aurelia with a Champion…. 😉 This is my point to rate these higher than a 12 time Group 1 winner is ludicrous…
Oh dear, you don’t seem to understand ratings, Manikato.
It doesn’t matter how many times a horse puts up exactly the same quality of performance, how good a horse is rated can only be rated on its best run. Neither does how much a horse has won matter. If there was a billion pound claiming race for poor quality horses, would the winner in your opinion be better than Winx?Winx does deserve the award for consistency, that does not make her capable of better form.
Value Is EverythingIt’s a fair point that Winx deserves to be rated amongst the top if not the best turf horse last year. It’s just that although Australia has the occaisional exceptional performer, apart from sprinting the overall quality is not there – so it’s difficult to judge just how good the top ones are… And those good sprinters seem to have disappeared now you’ve changed the drugs rules.
Black Caviar came over here and only just scrambled home at Ascot. Needing the sex allowance to finish a total of 3/4 length ahead of 3rd Restadargent and only a length better horse than Soul; two second tear European sprinters. But it’s not fair to judge Black Caviar on that form, just as it’s not fair to judge Highland Reel on his Australian 3rd to Winx. Timeform had Black Caviar as running 13 lbs below her best and Highland Reel as running 10 lbs below his. Horses are not machines, well; may be Winx is. Her consistencey is absolutely outstanding, but consistencey does not improve a horse’s rating.
Thing about Australian racing is it’s less competitive. European and American racing has many more horses rated at 128 to 135. Winx has a formidable record, but she is yet to beat anything that put up a Timeform rating more than 126 – Black Heart Bart. Kermadec 125 and Hartnell – a horse that Winx has beaten several times – has put up ratings no more than 124. Ratings of 126 to 124 are not good enough to win even an average renewal of open Group 1 races at 1m to 1m4f in Britain. Winx has beaten those horses easily, but because of that lack of competitiveness it’s harder to put a definite figure on how good she is. Timeform are relying a lot on times and their 134 is taken from a heavy ground success over a horse that ran in their opinion to 118. Heavy going results are again imo harder to quantify.
It is very possible Winx is worth 134, and I for one hope she can prove herself against better rivals somewhere. It’s just at the moment imo it’s not as reliable a rating as Almanzor’s 133, because of the quality of horse he was beating.
Still all mouth and no trousers GT. Brazen Beau was over there and unlucky a couple of Royal Ascots ago, you forget timing, the Championships are worth a fortune, peoples priorities change. The problem with people such as you, you listen to the likes of Ralph Beckett’s sour grapes on Aussies not going to RA.Let me explain how little Beckett knows he mentioned Choiser as being one horse tgat he suspected of being on steroids….Um Ralphy boy you don’t give entires steroids/ hormones, they produce their own. If you gave an entire/ stallion steroids you would be doing your best to break him down, too top heavy.Pure and simple YOU DO NOT GIVE ENTIRES STEROIDS.So Ralph should have done his homework there…No GT we have more than the occasional exceptional horse. Look don’ t be such a cherry picker you mention the 2nd and 4th horse BC best the 2nd horse was Moonlight Cloud who won a Group 1 by 5 lengths in Frnce at her next start you bloody cherry picker…You thought you would just leave her out ;) Oh and stuffed suspensories and torn chest muscles and Luke Nolen letting her coadt too much. You really do talk rubbish, you are the cherry picking king…
timeform should be known as,the artist formerly known as,i’m afraid to say timeform died about 8-10 year ago
Still all mouth and no trousers GT. Brazen Beau was over there and unlucky a couple of Royal Ascots ago, you forget timing, the Championships are worth a fortune, peoples priorities change. The problem with people such as you, you listen to the likes of Ralph Beckett’s sour grapes on Aussies not going to RA.Let me explain how little Beckett knows he mentioned Choiser as being one horse tgat he suspected of being on steroids….Um Ralphy boy you don’t give entires steroids/ hormones, they produce their own. If you gave an entire/ stallion steroids you would be doing your best to break him down, too top heavy.Pure and simple YOU DO NOT GIVE ENTIRES STEROIDS.So Ralph should have done his homework there…No GT we have more than the occasional exceptional horse. Look don’ t be such a cherry picker you mention the 2nd and 4th horse BC best the 2nd horse was Moonlight Cloud who won a Group 1 by 5 lengths in Frnce at her next start you bloody cherry picker…You thought you would just leave her out 😉 Oh and stuffed suspensories and torn chest muscles and Luke Nolen letting her coadt too much. You really do talk rubbish, you are the cherry picking king…
I haven’t read what Ralph Beckett said.
When horses are given steroids it builds up muscle. Just because a horse is then no longer given steroids doesn’t mean those muscles immediately disappear. Those who’ve had the benefit of the old rules have now retired. Horses trained only on the new rules don’t seem as good. May be it’s just a coincidence.
As for Moonlight Cloud… I did not mention her because both Black Caviar and (luckily for the Aussies) Moonlight Cloud were both below their best at Ascot. Moonlight Cloud – and it appears Black Caviar – don’t travel well. Form is form, you can’t airbrush out the 3rd and 4th. They keep the form down. If Black Caviar is only a 1/4 length better horse than Restiadargent and only a length better horse than Soul then she wasn’t anywhere near as good a sprinter as I thought she was. Ditto Moonlight Cloud.
If you think colts were never given steroids when it was within Australian rules for trainers to use them, then unfortunately you’re only fooling yourself, Jollyp. They’d be bloody stupid not to use them, because otherwise they’d be at a significant disadvantage when racing against other Australian trained sprinters.
Value Is Everythingtimeform should be known as,the artist formerly known as,i’m afraid to say timeform died about 8-10 year ago
That’s the same type of comment that was on here the first time they gave Frankel a 140 rating.
Value Is Everythingjust my opinion mate,think its watered down nowdays. No axe to grind on my part as I was a subscriber for over 20 years to just about everything the printed.
It is very possible Winx is worth 134, and I for one hope she can prove herself against better rivals somewhere. It’s just at the moment imo it’s not as reliable a rating as Almanzor’s 133, because of the quality of horse he was beating.
You’re talking a lot of sense on this thread Ginge.
You’re right that at the top level in Europe you have horses from all over constantly competing be they from Britain, Ireland and France or Germany, Italy and Spain. Throw in the odd American and Japanese runners and it makes for the most competitive racing on the planet. Winx is a brilliant racehorse and probably the world’s greatest right now, bearing in mind we still have the big end of season European races to come, but you couldn’t say definitively.
Take Sea The Stars for example, in 6 races he defeated the best from Ireland (Mastercraftsman, Fame And Glory, Rip Van Winkle), Britain (Delegator, Conduit, Twice Over, Youmzain, Dar Re Mi, Lord Shanakill, Cityscape), France (Stacelita, Cavalryman, Vision De’tat), Italy (Cima De Triomphe) and Germany (Getaway) who themselves won at the top level in the US, Ireland, Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Dubai, Hong Kong and Japan.
Through absolutely no fault of her own, Winx can’t boast such a record and in my opinion would need either several European Group 1 winners (i.e. Enable, Barney Roy, Al Wukair, Ulysses) to travel to Australia to take her on (which is very unlikely) or to travel to Europe herself and take these types on.
This doesn’t mean to say she isn’t the best horse on the planet, as I dare say she is, she just would need to take on the world if she’s to be held in the same esteem as the likes of Sea The Stars, Giant’s Causeway, Kingman and Almanzor. I won’t mention Frankel as it’s unfair to compare any horse to him.
As for Arrogate, that tough Winter campaign probably left more of a mark that connections thought. It’d be harsh to judge him on his last 2 efforts. Wait and see how he gets on in the Breeders Cup Classic.
You’re talking a lot of sense on this thread Ginge.
I do like to surprise people occasionally, Charles.
Value Is Everything
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