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Surely the point here is that the prices at Billy’s competitors may be better but they are available to ‘very little money’.
……….Billy’s prices, by contrast, are actually available to precisiely no money – unless you’re a card carrying member of gamanon.
Hey Lads was woundering what the ideal % Book for a dog race should be??
(Edited by PaulB at 9:03 pm on Dec. 29, 2006)
- Total Posts 17716
Quote: from FlatSeasonLover on 10:19 am on Dec. 27, 2006[br]William Hills claim to offer the most competitive prices on the high street. I was looking at the market for the Queen Mother Champion Chase with quite a few firms and the 1 thing that struck me (aside from the bad price on the horse I liked) was how bad William Hill’s prices really are. For some unknown reason they have decided to include Kauto Star in their betting for it. ÂÂÂ
Would you believe this pathetic organisation is still advertising Kauto Star at 4/5 for the Champion Chase???<br>The horse would be unlikely to be any shorter if he were to run;  how desperate are they for the mug money?:biggrin:
(Edited by reet hard at 12:22 pm on Jan. 15, 2007)<br>
(Edited by reet hard at 12:24 pm on Jan. 15, 2007)
Seeing as Kauto Star is entered in the Champion Chase, William Hill have every right to quote a price for him to win the race.
Quote: from reet hard on 12:21 pm on Jan. 15, 2007[br]
Quote: from FlatSeasonLover on 10:19 am on Dec. 27, 2006[br]William Hills claim to offer the most competitive prices on the high street. I was looking at the market for the Queen Mother Champion Chase with quite a few firms and the 1 thing that struck me (aside from the bad price on the horse I liked) was how bad William Hill’s prices really are. For some unknown reason they have decided to include Kauto Star in their betting for it. ÂÂÂ
Would you believe this pathetic organisation is still advertising Kauto Star at 4/5 for the Champion Chase???<br>The horse would be unlikely to be any shorter if he were to run;  how desperate are they for the mug money?:biggrin:
(Edited by reet hard at 12:22 pm on Jan. 15, 2007)
<br>(Edited by reet hard at 12:24 pm on Jan. 15, 2007)<br>
rh
Right, put yourself in the position of the bookmaker. Let’s say I reckon will run in the Queen Mother Champion Chase and I’ve got £10,000 to put on the Kauto Star(…..if only!). What odds would you give me at this time?
Rob
I have highlighted the problem with early odds before. I stopped using PP for that very reason, and it soured me to the whole betting experience in general.<br>Any punter wants to believe they are occasionally getting good value. 15 – 20% of the time doesn’t really cut it.<br>I don’t think anyone should ever take early odds, unless you have the scoop on a pricewise selection. Or maybe you can cop onto a Grand National gamble early. <br>Otherwise, just wait for the true price … the SP.
Anyone who claims that ante-post and early prices give no value and whine that bookies are ripping them off are exactly the people that gamcare are desperate to help. EP’s aren’t like bread and milk ~ you don’t need to take them so you can’t be ripped off by them.
Of course, people who claim you should only bet at SP are the people that high street bookmakers are desperate to "help" :biggrin:
When an EP is taken, you are taking a gamble. But that gamble should fairly reflect the fact that you have no paddock info, no ‘late gamble’ info, no access to late ground info, etc. You are taking a bigger gamble, therefore you should expect to not be offered ‘SP minus 1pt’.<br>Let’s be candid here. The bookmakers have a fair idea of how the book is going to perform. You can be pretty sure that when they offer 4/1 about a horse, they are fairly confident that it will go off at 5/1.<br>True, EPs are not a right. But as bookmakers, they are obliged to offer a fair reflection of the horse’s chance, a full two hours of more ahead of the race. The EP should rarely be seen as a poor alternative to taking SP.
- Total Posts 17716
Quote: from davidjohnson on 12:28 pm on Jan. 15, 2007[br]Seeing as Kauto Star is entered in the Champion Chase, William Hill have every right to quote a price for him to win the race.<br>
They also have a right to put a big neon arrow over their shop entrances emblazoned with "IF YOU’RE DAFT ENOUGH TO BACK THEM, WE’LL TAKE ADVANTAGE", but they haven’t yet?;) <br> Blue Square apart. all the major firms exclude KS from their list for this race, one would imagine on the grounds of common sense and ethics?
I’ve had a best price from them on occasions.
But I can’t get SP from them on my nags, short of phoning my bets on. I know I wasn’t checking the Hills price boxes, but I still got the Hills price, whether I liked it or not.
I’ve already checked it out, so I’m not inclined to phone them up again in the hope that they’ll sort it out.
But it’s a minor gripe. I jtend to just use them for very small stake bets (£2) and very occasional best AP price they offer.
Quote: from Racing Daily on 2:38 pm on Jan. 15, 2007[br]Let’s be candid here.  The bookmakers have a fair idea of how the book is going to perform.  You can be pretty sure that when they offer 4/1 about a horse, they are fairly confident that it will go off at 5/1..<br>
That’s where you’re wrong RD ~ bookies don’t know what the SP will be at all. They price up the races as they see them but feel the need to add an extra point of profit in as a kind of insurance. The fact is that many people make a profit from EP’s by exercising good judgement. It’s true that the prices offer better theoretical value at SP, but there aren’t so many opportunities of gaining value at SP, as opposed to EP’s, especially as you have the opportunity to shop around for value.
Plenty of naivety and confusion in this thread:-
Opening statement “total sp of their book is 175%“.surely the SP is the returned price on the day of the race!!
Someone else mentioned all his bets where taken at EP even if he wanted the SP…………..this cannot be the case,i would check that you are clicking the right box,maybe you are taking a board price near to the off? as bets at SP are in the Bookmakers interest and i very much doubt you would have problems getting on!!
With regard to betting ante post the Bookmakers put up the prices, you as the consumer have a free hand in that you can choose to take it or leave it,at the end of the day if you are shopping around and taking the best price you should in theory have an advantage over the SP otherwise you are doing something wrong!!
Early prices are differant in that a non runner means money back and a rule 4 deduction if applicable, whilst Bookmakers will traditionally bet 130% on a 10 horse race the best price book is more than likely to be between 110-120%………….then its down to your own ability/Knowledge in assessing the market!!
I think the great thing in all of this is “freedom of choice“,you can bet ante post,early price,board price,starting price,you can place bets with a Bookmaker or betting exchange,you can decide to lay a horse if thats your thing,prices are competitive,competition is allowed,theirs no state monopoly,taxation as been removed from the equation,information is more readily available and you have literally the same tools has the Bookmakers!!
Punters are like footballers in that they have differant levels of ability,some are premier league,some lower league,some half professionals,then theirs the amateurs and last but not least the kick around with the kids……………..whatever your situation it shouldn`t be a problem if you can recognise the level your at!!
Ian Wright (Arsenal) proved it was possible to step up the ladder as he went from plasterer and sunday amateur through the ranks to Crystal Palace/Arsenal(Golden boot first season)/England!!
Last but not least ….ante post betting is not what it used to be,the mystique doesnt really exist,its the advantage of batting on a level playing field!!
Quote: from Tony25 on 9:16 am on Jan. 16, 2007[br]whilst Bookmakers will traditionally bet 130% on a 10 horse race
Erm, no they won’t! The traditional percentage on a 10 runner race is going to be around the 120% mark. For a book around the 130% mark you’re looking at a field of more like 20 runners.
Quote: from Tony25 on 8:16 am on Jan. 16, 2007[br]….maybe you are taking a board price near to the off? as bets at SP are in the Bookmakers interest and i very much doubt you would have problems getting on!!<br>
Do you mean by this, that at some point close to the off, there is no requirement to tick the "take the price" box, as it will be taken as it appears on the screen at that time, anyway? It’s too late to take the SP?
Because I can be absent-minded, twice, I deliberately set out to place a bet, concentrating precisely on not checking the box against the current Hills price.
(Edited by Grimes at 6:16 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)<br>
(Edited by Grimes at 6:19 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
Quote: from Shadow Leader on 11:42 am on Jan. 16, 2007[br]
Quote: from Tony25 on 9:16 am on Jan. 16, 2007[br]whilst Bookmakers will traditionally bet 130% on a 10 horse race
Erm, no they won’t!  The traditional percentage on a 10 runner race is going to be around the 120% mark.  For a book around the 130% mark you’re looking at a field of more like 20 runners.<br>
<br>Tony’s served his time as well SL! 3% certainly used to par for th course when doing EP’s although I haven’t checked recently as there is more competition with all firms trying to price up as many races as possible and Betfair a useful benchmark.
It certainly isn’t 3% a runner nowadays Rory!  Actually you surprise me m’dear – didn’t think you’d be pushing the 3% a runner theory! ;)  The generally accepted norm for EPs nowadays would be more like 2% a runner for the first 10 runners then 1% a runner thereafter – either that or roughly 1.5% a runner in fields over 10.
Think of the stink that ould be kicked up going 3% a runner in the current climate – McCririck would have a field day! :biggrin:
Of course percentages in ante post races are a different kettle of fish altogether.
Oh – and apologies Tony, no offence intended at all! :)
(Edited by Shadow Leader at 8:51 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
Paddy Power  Early price 3.40 Wolves…….. betting to  130%,was a 12 horse race so 2.5% per runner,i would hazzard a guess that Hills would chalk up at 128% for a 10 horse race.
Mind you i must admit to not really taking much notice, its difficult to get a serious bet early doors,Betfairs the same , liquidity levels are not serious until about 30 mins before a race.
(Edited by Tony25 at 8:12 pm on Jan. 16, 2007)
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