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On reflection, perhaps “shrewd” would be more appropriate than “competent”. He was a classic gambling trainer, who’d regularly have horses hooked up until the big day arrived. Think George Todd, and you get the idea (wouldn’t like to mention anyone still alive!).Best not to
Two more debutantes for Andre Fabre tomorrow at Saint Cloud with the colt Franked and filly Aspirer. Both are Juddmonte horses. Also at Leicester we have Sir Michael’s first Frankel, Rainbow Legacy. This colt out of Gift Range has been the subject of several good gallops reports so should go well.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Tim Fitzgeorge-Parker was his assistant at the end of his career and has of him in his book “Being a Racehorse Trainer”.
Even though Fitzgeorge-Parker is in awe of him in the book he still comes over as a rather unpleasant man,though no doubt a product of his age.I think RPR’s aren’t really worth the paper they are written after 1 run Steve. City Of Joy is highly regarded with big entries hence the flood of money. He had run a race full of promise first time out running on after getting the hang of things late-on. I’d be hugely surprised if the first three don’t turn out to be pattern performers.
Agree that it will require a big step up for SS to win a Racing Post and rather hope they find a race in between to continue the education as he still seemed green. James Willoughby thinks he is the best Frankel we have seen so far. Time will tell.
I said myself in another thread that RPR for 1st run 2yo runners are not worth taking literally.
It’s purely a ball park figure but I would rather have a ball park figure than nothing at all.
Obviously James Willoughby knows a lot more about it than me.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Trouble with RPR ratings is they don’t give no account of what rating the horse will achieve next time out; no symbol or comments. No knowing how much a 2 year old may improve for its run. One reason why Timeform are far superior. City Of Joy was only rated 80 for his 5th, but with a big “P” (P = “capable of much better form”). Comments from debut such as “…” Then there’s SMS’s first time out strike rate to consider (along with Elsworth’s
) doesn’t win many and they often improve significantly second time.Make no mistake, that was a bloody good maiden race Swiss Storm won. City Of Joy ran well, likely to go on from Saturday and make in to a really good 3 year old. Forget the 73.
Value Is EverythingMy point is not about what happens next year.
I was asking whether City Of Joy should have been odds on on Saturday.
It’s in the book now and he was beaten. If he wins the Derby next year, people who backed him on Saturday still won’t get paid out.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Rainbow Legacy wasn’t going to win anything today he was struggling to keep up with the pace from the start and soon beig scrubbed along. Eased down by Ryan Moore once it was clear he wasn’t going to improve his position.
The winner was good but the one to take out of that race for next time out is Sound Bar, very impressive and unlucky not to win today.
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Rainbow Legacy wasn’t going to win anything today he was struggling to keep up with the pace from the start and soon beig scrubbed along. Eased down by Ryan Moore once it was clear he wasn’t going to improve his position.
He got loose before the start apparently, though I didn’t see it. Looks like another big fellow too. If they don’t make it on the flat, some of these Frankels should be an asset to the jumps in a year or so!
My point is not about what happens next year.
I was asking whether City Of Joy should have been odds on on Saturday.
It’s in the book now and he was beaten. If he wins the Derby next year, people who backed him on Saturday still won’t get paid out.
Yes Steve, and my point was equally about what happened on Saturday.
This is what you said.I couldn’t believe City Of Joy was odds on. 5th in his first race and coming into this on a Racing Post Rating of 73 hardly warranted him being something of a good thing in the market.
Swiss Storm was only 5 lbs back in the ratings on his first run and that’s nothing with youngsters who have only run once.
I didn’t play on this race and I’m not sure how good the form will turn out. Swiss Storm is in the Racing Post Trophy but would need a mighty leap forward for that one from here. He does look a specimen though.
What I am saying is the 5th and 73 had nothing to do with why City Of Joy was so short in Saturday’s market. It was his potential to improve. “Potential” not only for next year but potential to improve massively from first to second start.
Both COJ and SS showed abundant promise first time up and I was amazed the Early Odds of 5/2 City Of Joy and 3/1 Swiss Storm meant the combined price for one of them to win was only a fraction of odds-on 10/11, could not understand why it wasn’t at least 4/6. I made City Of Joy around a fair 2/1 shot with Swiss Storm around 9/4.
This was my original bet:
1:10 Newbury
55 points @ 3/1 (B365) Swiss Storm* (min 11/4)
savers:
22 points @ 5/2 (Sky) City Of Joy (min 5/2)
5 points @ 17.5/1 (betfair) Koeman (min 16/1)(£5 available)Obviously if I think City Of Joy was a fair 2/1 (in a 100% book) I’d be expecting a bookies price of around 7/4 once a mark up is added. Quite a bit different to 10/11 SP. So before the race and before the betting took shape I would’ve agreed that odds-on was too short. However, City Of Joy put up a performance on Saturday that would’ve been good enough to win most Newbury maidens (more than 50% of that type of race). Therefore, the performance has justified City Of Joy starting odds-on… The money/price proved right despite finding another unusually good two year old coming out on top.
Value Is EverythingSweet Jesus what a load of old pish.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I said myself in another thread that RPR for 1st run 2yo runners are not worth taking literally.
It’s purely a ball park figure but I would rather have a ball park figure than nothing at all.
Obviously James Willoughby knows a lot more about it than me.
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Yes that’s why I wondered why you used it this time. They mean nothing if you haven’t seen the race and the potential of the horse in question.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I thought this Thread was about how Frankel was going to Rule The World not Ginger & Steve
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Rainbow Legacy wasn’t going to win anything today he was struggling to keep up with the pace from the start and soon being scrubbed along. Eased down by Ryan Moore once it was clear he wasn’t going to improve his position.
He got loose before the start apparently, though I didn’t see it. Looks like another big fellow too. If they don’t make it on the flat, some of these Frankels should be an asset to the jumps in a year or so!
That must explain his poor run then Tonge, so we can draw a line under that race and hope he behaves himself next time he turns out. Ryan Moore certainly looked after him so hopefully he is none the worse for the experience.
Could we ever see a Frankel colt or mare run over fences?…I hope not because I don’t think I would be able to watch.
Jac
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...I thought this Thread was about how Frankel was going to Rule The World not Ginger & Steve
It is entirely up to Steve if he isn’t sure about the Swiss Storm/City Of Joy form.
I am just explaining why I rate the Frankel colt Swiss Storm quite highly.
Nothing else.Is that ok with you Jac?
Value Is EverythingOf course Ginge
It was only meant to be tongue in cheek hence the I think Swiss Storm will figure very prominently in next year’s Classics and like you I really like the look of him.
I never take too much notice of ratings just trust my own bit of knowledge and judgement on what I see and this colt looks more than special..Jac
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Could we ever see a Frankel colt or mare run over fences?…I hope not because I don’t think I would be able to watch.
Jac I don’t know about a colt or mare – if he carries on as he’s started, they’ll be far too valuable – but we’ll definitely get some Frankel geldings over hurdles at least in the future.
I said myself in another thread that RPR for 1st run 2yo runners are not worth taking literally.
It’s purely a ball park figure but I would rather have a ball park figure than nothing at all.
Obviously James Willoughby knows a lot more about it than me.
Yes that’s why I wondered why you used it this time. They mean nothing if you haven’t seen the race and the potential of the horse in question.
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It all depends on the context of the race or situations you are applying figure to Joni. With City Of Joy up against Swiss Storm, their Racing Post Ratings coming in meant next to nothing. If we are then talking about where Swiss Storm stands in the overall 2yo scene, then even the ball park figures of the Racing Post must surely give us an idea of how much he has to make up to get to top class.
The Racing Post gave Swiss Storm an improvement of 12 lbs on his first start and make him a horse rated 84 now. City Of Joy went up 5 lbs on his debut run to a mark of 78. Maybe Timeform or the official handicapper have rated them higher but I don’t have access to the Timeform figures and the official handicapper can be tardy in awarding a mark.
We won’t know until next season and I am just offering my take on a horse by horse basis. I will take James Willoughby on in a match bet that my Seven Heavens will prove better than his Swiss Storm next season. The Racing Post give my fellow a 14 lbs lead on ratings but that could be bullsh*t in some peoples eyes.
I think Gosden has another Frankel entered up this weekend, so I’ll be looking out for that one.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
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