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Seeing as people keep regurgitating such comments, whether in the context of NH vs Flat vs AW type posts or in the context of JHG’s comments in his interview with the RP, as posted by Richard earlier this evening, what exactly is your opinion of what constitutes dross or poor quality racing?
To help me arrive at a mark for both NH and flat, please post on this thread a BHB rating that you consider the cut-off point between ‘dross’ or rubbish horses that racing just shouldn’t bother with:
(a) NH cut-off mark?
(b) flat cut-off mark?
(GH can just state ‘all flat’ or ‘all AW’)
Any race run on the AW at Kempton.
Wolves, Lingfield and Southwell can join the group too, admittedly!
No, SL, we need ratings/marks please, one for NH, one for flat and another for AW if you feel differently for AW – surely you can’t suggest a class 6 handicap runner at Thirsk is preferable to listed/group participants on the polytrack?
Either way, if people really think racing at a certain level becomes dross, should be easy to put a mark to it – if one can’t then one can’t be sure of what they’re saying, can they?
I wonder if anyone will be able to put marks to this, for both NH and flat?
That’s nigh-on impossible to answer, and I’d sooner not come down hard and fast on a threshold, to be honest. I wouldn’t automatically regard a 0-90 handicap chase or a 0-45 Banded Flat race as dross if the fare was competitive, i.e. if two or more animals in the line-up could be argued a case for winning on merit, any more than I’d automatically regard some of the thinner-contested Graded races this winter as wholly satisfying fare.
It’s hard not to regard some of the cries of "dross racing!" from certain quarters as an almost tacit admission that the race in question is one either too hard to fathom, or else interests insufficiently. Yet even those events which appear to offer the punter the least assistance on first glance, be that a seller, or a hunters’ chase, have their legion of supporters who can make them pay (I notice only today Nick Mordin revealed a system in the
Weekender
for profiting in certain selling hurdles and chases); so if dross = impenetrable, how "drossy" can these races really be?
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
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Any race run on the AW at Kempton.
Wolves, Lingfield and Southwell can join the group too, admittedly!
Ghanaati is very dross!!!!!
Jesus, some people.
Ratings shmatings.
Class 6, for me, is ‘dross’. But people bet on it, so where’s the problem?
Any race run on the AW at Kempton.
Wolves, Lingfield and Southwell can join the group too, admittedly!
The Masaka? The Easter Stakes? Last years Breeders Cup trial? The London Mile Series? Plenty of twenty grand handicaps. If you don’t like AW racing fair enough. But at least look at the facts.
Two Listeds at Lingers yesterday, a Dettori four-timer, for Godolphin. The Churchill Stakes coming soon. The Winter Derby. At least five £12,000 plus races at the sandpit in October and November. Lincoln Trial Day at Wolverhampton (as well as the fence-bulging crowd on Boxing Day)
Low class! Compared to what exactly?
"Dross" has nothing to do with ratings – dross for me is uncompetitive racing and it is just as possible to have uncompetitive races at Class 1 level than the basement levels, albeit not as often.
However, by nature, the poor races are more likely to be at the lower level where prize money is poor and those taking part are horses which serially conspire to lose races.
There are too many races where the runners have amassed between them a couple of hundred runs yet have only mustered enough wins between them that can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Another example could be the first two races at Newmarket this afternoon where the usual range of lightly or unraced two-year-olds are rolled out to try and win some corn.
It is interesting that small field NH races are often quoted. Small field NH races can produce some genuinely exciting races. I would rather watch a three or four runner junp race with two runners battling up the run in, than a 14 runner race where the leader is five clear half a furlong from home.
But at the end of the day it comes down to personal choice. I do enjoy the "occasional" visit to AW racing – half or dozen or so meetings a year is more than enough though. But for me it lacks variety, excitement, the "wow" factor – with turf racing there is constant variety.
Take a week in April where I went to Ayr (Scottish National), Kempton (AW), Towcester, Epsom, Fontwell and Sandown. Six courses and every one completely different in character – for me that is the attraction of racing in this country.
In January when we lost all the jump racing I went to five AW meetings in one week – I had almost lost the will to live by the end of it – just down to the sheer repetitiveness of it all. The only bright note was one of the meetings proved to be the death knell of Great Leighs.
[code:kwneqjp0]Take a week in April where I went to Ayr (Scottish National), Kempton (AW), Towcester, Epsom, Fontwell and Sandown. Six courses and every one completely different in character – for me that is the attraction of racing in this country.[/code:kwneqjp0]
Amen to that. Having spent the best part of the last 10 years living in the Middle East, I’d say never take having a choice about anything for granted. I’ll never understand this desire of some elements to rid the sport of racing it dislikes for no other reason than dislike itself. Enjoy the bits you like, throw away the bits you dont imo.
Variety is a wonderful thing, which is why I like UK racing just as it is.
Well said that man!
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
I don’t like AW racing; is that ok with you lot?! I must remember to follow tongue-in-cheek comments with one of these
in future so that people can cotton on!Take a week in April where I went to Ayr (Scottish National), Kempton (AW), Towcester, Epsom, Fontwell and Sandown. Six courses and every one completely different in character – for me that is the attraction of racing in this country.
I think most of us would agree with that.
One of my concerns with the introduction of and increase in all-weather racing is that that variety will eventually be eroded. I’m only an occasional racegoer, but in the last year or so I’ve been to Perth, Hexham, York, Beverley, Southwell, Great Leighs, Lingfield, Newton Abbot and Salisbury. Sea The Stars at York, the equivalent of banded action at Southwell. And at Hexham, a Cheltenham Festival-placed animal justifying short-priced favouritism in a novice chase on the same card as a 60-rated horse made the frame in the seller.
Perhaps the latter race would fit some people’s definition of dross, but it added diversity to a meeting that also included a novice hurdle featuring an expensive recruit from the Flat and a bumper containing three horses now better known as decent hurdlers. For me, there’s nothing wrong with a mixture of "dross" and quality, of 4-runner maidens and 35-runner Heritage Handicaps? I’d much prefer that to a standardised diet of formulaic 12-runner races on identikit tracks with identical surfaces.
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One’s Marmite (yummy) is another’s Peanut Butter (yukky)One’s Bach (fill me up Creosote-style) is another’s Boyzone (chunder)
One’s Glasgow Celtic (each to their own) is another’s Glasgow Rangers (each to their own) is another’s Wick Academy (each to their own)
(note to self: do be careful Drone)
How do I rate those on the hallowed 0-180 scale and I hasten to add – in the interest of balance – the 0-140 scale
Fuuuuuccccckkkk knows
But I know what I like and I know what I don’t
Dross:
def. A lazy rationalization used in a throwaway manner to dismiss something you don’t personally like: innit
Dundalk, Newmarket, Uttoxeter, Wetherby, Wolverhampton. Blimey, yet another over-egged portion of racing’s sickly-rich pudding awaits; but ain’t there something for all persuasions there
As far as I am concerned "dross" means class 6 and below. IMO any horse below 60 does not deserve to win a race. Whether that is in an uncompetitive race or not. We should be trying to increase the quality of British racing, not dragging it down.
Divercity, with track types, distances, jumps, flat and even all-weather; make British and Irish racing more interesting than anywhere else. But, those would surely be made better if the quality of racing was that bit better.
Value Is EverythingThe ‘dross’ were always with us, but the nature of the race program was so different that they weren’t so noticeable.
Back in the days of open handicaps with top weight on 10st and bottom weight on 7st 7lbs, the equivalents of a modern day 80 rated horse and a 45 rated horse could run in the same race.
Even as recently as eight years ago, I had a horse (Democracy) who was never rated higher than 52 during the 2001 flat season, but he was able to run at Goodwood (where he won), Kempton, Newmarket and Epsom. At the last named he was part of an 8 runner 0-80 handicap. Now he’d be miles out of the handicap in such a race.
At Goodwood he won a 0-70 handicap off a mark of 49 – but that race had 22 runners and the safety limit now is 16 and the rating band would 56 – 70, so he wouldn’t have been entered and wouldn’t have got into the race anyway.
So perhaps the problem is that the dross is all pushed into the same dross v dross races and therefore is more visible.
AP
As far as I am concerned "dross" means class 6 and below.
Presumably that refers primarily to handicaps, does it, Ginge? Otherwise you’ve just written off a large number of bumpers and hunters’ chases.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
in future so that people can cotton on!
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