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Do you believe non-stayers have a better chance to stay a trip if the race is slowly run? In other words, do you believe pace has an effect on the chances of a horse staying out a trip? I would think that most believe that it does but I’ve heard otherwise too. I’m a bit undecided on the subject.
I think everyone agrees that cut in the ground makes for a tougher staying test, and straight courses also make stamina more important.
I’ve also heard a jockey say that non-stayers on turf often stay a tad better on All Weather tracks.
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Presto
There’s no great mystery, imo.
Humans can walk further than they can run (With stamina directly correlating to how slow) and it’s little different with most other creatures. All assuming an even pace throughout, of course.
Agree with your 2nd para, once again it’s commmon sense that horses will use more energy in softer ground, or running a straight course with no break in the pace for cornering – again, much like humans.
AW tracks are subject to the same physics, but it’s fair to say that they are generally tighter tracks, so horses should stay a little further – though Southwell; with its slower surface, easier bends, and horses racing prominently to avoid the kickback, would be the more testing.
Of course, there are various schools of thought on all of the above, and endless permutations of pace, track and surface, but, if it doesn’t fit within a common sense template, then it should be questioned.
Imo, of course.Interesting subject and one I’ve been thinking about for a while, not that I’ve come to any firm conclusions !
A couple of ideas to chuck into the mix……..
It’s usually said that soft ground suits the stamina horse, but as it slows the field down and reduces the pace of the race, maybe it suits a speed horse (providing he acts on soft)
Similarly it’s often said that a small field suits a speed horse as he can lay up and pounce at the finish. But as it’s more difficult to ‘cover up’ in a small field it could be harder for a speed horse to conserve energy for the finish
My main focus is all weather racing and one of my angles is to look for horses in small fields that get the trip and further but are up against speedier types stepping up in trip.
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Presto, the best example of pace and stamina I can give you is this years Derby.
It’s worth watching over and over, a great learning tool for anyone looking at what is meant by stamina and pace.
Good luck pal
What does this year’s Derby tell us Mr W?
Please Sir! Does it tell us that TAPK is one well named Mother..
A horse has a better chance of staying the trip in a slowly run race than he does truly or strongly run. However, those used to faster pace (at a shorter trip) often pull too hard in a slowly run race over further. If it does not settle it won’t stay. Therefore, there are times when a strongER pace gives a "doubtful" stayer a better chance of getting the trip.
Trouble is such horses usually need to be held up "to get the trip" or settle. A slowly run race favours prominent runners. One with a two length deficit coming in to the last two furlongs of a 1m4f race; will find it infinitely more difficult to make up that ground in a slowly run race as he would truly run.
Having said that, provided a doubtful stayer settles and is kept fairly close to the pace, he stands a greater chance of winning in a slowly run race.Often a strongly run race is won by one with abundent stamina (at the particular trip). It may look as though he’s produced a turn of foot, where as in truth he’s just slowing down at a lesser rate than those who’ve gone too fast earlier.
Soft ground complicates it even further. Seems to me connections of a horse who has won a race being dropped out the back with a decent pace on good ground – should consider changing tactics on soft. Very few horses are capable of producing much of a change of pace on soft/heavy going. So a doubtful stayer, held up, on soft ground, is three or four times inconvenienced. Races where a hold up horse wins when the going is testing is usually because the pace has been too strong at an earlier point. Though it will need stamina at the trip to do so. Of course if a horse is of a far better quality it can overcome many problems.
It is up to the punter to know his horses and work out if it is likely to settle / pull too hard / get a race run to suit. Every horse will be different in its pace bias.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
What does this year’s Derby tell us Mr W?
All my thoughts are in the archieved Derby thread, too busy to start writing everything up again. sorry.
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Sometimes, you just wonder whether it’s worth it – with TAPK hijacking another useful discussion to remind us he’d backed a winner, and Ginger informing us that a stronger pace would help a doubtful stayer – it might be better just to watch Jackanory?
Presto
There’s no great mystery, imo.
Humans can walk further than they can run (With stamina directly correlating to how slow) and it’s little different with most other creatures. All assuming an even pace throughout, of course.
Agree with your 2nd para, once again it’s commmon sense that horses will use more energy in softer ground, or running a straight course with no break in the pace for cornering – again, much like humans.
AW tracks are subject to the same physics, but it’s fair to say that they are generally tighter tracks, so horses should stay a little further – though Southwell; with its slower surface, easier bends, and horses racing prominently to avoid the kickback, would be the more testing.
Of course, there are various schools of thought on all of the above, and endless permutations of pace, track and surface, but, if it doesn’t fit within a common sense template, then it should be questioned.
Imo, of course."There"s no great mystery"
"Humans can walk further than they can run"
"Its common sense that horses will use more energy in softer ground"
, The second part of your contribution then goes on to contradict the above reet.
"endless permutations of pace track and surface"
,
"Various schools of thought on all the above"
and as for
"If it doesn"t fit within a commom sense template then it should be questioned"
?
I"ll just disagree with the "Its common sense that horses will use more energy in softer ground" bit!
Sometimes, you just wonder whether it’s worth it – with TAPK hijacking another useful discussion to remind us he’d backed a winner, and Ginger informing us that a stronger pace would help a doubtful stayer – it might be better just to watch Jackanory?
Some people are just envious of anyone who is a successful punter.
I agree, you do sometimes wonder whether it is worth giving an opinion. When it is deliberately twisted by someone with an obvious vendetta. Must be getting on members nerves by now, does you no favours Reet. It is not worthy of theracingforum. Please treat every thread diferently and stop trying to score childish points.
If you want to criticise what I say Reet, be my guest. Enjoy a good discussion and a bit of banter. But please be decent enough to quote me, and quote accurately.
Sometimes a horse will pull too hard in a slowly run race, this takes a lot of energy. Therefore, there are TIMES when a strongER pace would help a horse to stay. ie The strongER pace that might make it slightly more of a "stamina test"; is far outweighed by the horse not over-exerting himself by pulling hard.
If a horse DOES SETTLE, then of course a slower pace makes it easier for a doubtful stayer.
Value Is EverythingMy threepennorth would be to say that the physical makeup of a horse’s muscles determines how far it will stay rather than the pace of a particular race. Here’s a brief description from another website of the different types of muscle:
In equine athletes, muscle fibers are classified as either slow twitch or fast twitch fibers. Slow twitch, or Type I, fibers … are highly oxidative, meaning they use aerobic metabolism to produce energy-generating ATP. These fibers are used for endurance and are said to be "fatigue-resistant" because they are capable of reducing the toxic end products of metabolism, such as lactate. Fast twitch, or Type II, fibers are subdivided into Type II A … and Type II B … fibers. The Type II A fibers are both high and low oxidative. These fibers are capable of utilizing both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism to produce energy for work. Type II A fibers are used to maintain high speed or jumping. The Type II B fibers are low oxidative, meaning they are highly anaerobic. These fibers are used to give the horse speed. Neither class of Type II muscle fibers has the ability to reduce lactate as do Type I fibers; therefore, fatigue is reached in a shorter time.
IMHO its the mix of those types of muscle in the individual horse which make the difference. A sprinter won’t stay a mile because he has the wrong mix of muscle types to do so – the pace of the race is irrelevant to that.
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Ginger
"Therefore, there are times when a strongER pace gives a "doubtful" stayer a better chance of getting the trip."
Maybe it’s your broken English, but the above flies in the face of common sense, however you try to justify it.
ps There is no vendetta; you stop talking tripe, and I’ll stop pointing it out. Okay?
Reet,
So you think a doubtful stayer can pull hard for the first three quarters of a race, yet still stay the trip?EDIT:
It can happen, but not very often.
A horse who settles is more likely to stay the trip than one who pulls hard.Value Is EverythingI take it it is New Approach you are talking about David, as I don’t remember Sea The Stars pulling hard.
New Approach won the Derby in a comparitively truly run race David. Early pace was good until steadying around halfway and then quickening again. Had the pace been slow from the start, I doubt if he’d have enough energy left to win it.Though it is possible (like I said in the original post) any horse might be so much better than its rivals to overcome any problems.
All I am saying is in my opinion a strongER (emphasise stronger not "strong") pace sometimes (not always) helps a horse stay the trip by enabling it to settle.
In my opinion, had the early pace remained as it was, New Appraoach would have been even more impressive.
Value Is EverythingHorses do not stay as far on tighter tracks. The turns are the most tiring part of a race, the more there are the longer the race seems for the horse, and the longer it takes. A one-turn or straight mile is run like a sprint, a two-turn mile is run like a route.
In general many great stayers are closers who only really run in the final part of the race. Closers do much better when given a fast early pace to run against, and speed horses that tire in front of them.
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