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Miss Woodford
Try running just once around your car: you won’t get tired, you won’t sprint, and you won’t do it in nearly the same time as you could running straight.Of the 5 dual winners of the Ascot Gold Cup (those whose form is on the RP database), viz:
SADEEM
DRUM TAPS
KAYF TARA
ROYAL REBEL
YEATS
only one (KT), would loosely fit the pattern of a ‘closer’, and only then over extremes.Sanctuaire at Exeter today illustrated my point about staying the trip and pulling too hard. He stays 2m well, showing good speed in a truly run race at Cheltenham (Fred Winter). But given 2m1f around Exeter in a very slowly run race. Found disappointingly little after pulling hard throughout.
A fair or even pace, can help a horse stay the trip, by allowing it to settle.
Value Is EverythingSanctuaire is a pretty poor example, probably more to it that just pace of the race given that run
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Sanctuaire’s defeat owed nothing to his not staying the trip, and everything to him being outsped – a view supported by every single piece of his form in this country.
When zoologist, C. Richard Taylor studied energy consumption in horses travelling at various gaits, he found a striking pattern. At each gait, there was one narrow range of speed where energy consumption was lowest. These optimum speeds were almost precisely the same as the speed the horse would naturally choose at each gait.
When they were asked to move at unusually slow pace, the energy they spent to move a given distance shot up.
He also found that the total energy expended in travelling a kilometer at a walk, trot, or canter was exactly the same, so long as the horses were allowed to move at the optimal speed for each gait.
~ The Nature Of Horses
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Dear, oh dear!
Much the best of Sanctuaire’s completed performance’s to date was his Fred Winter win – appropriately, also the severest test of his stamina.
In that race, he also pulled like a lunatic early, though you won’t glean that from RP comments – any more than you’ll learn about understanding form through googling obscure theorems.Look forward to seeing Sanctuaire running at 2 1/2 miles then Reet.
He might not have settled perfectly in the Fred Winter, but settled far better with a better pace and more horses in front of him; than in a four horse, slowly run race.
Value Is EverythingHere in the US a stayer is a horse that can run more than 7 furlongs. Having said that pace is pretty much everything. Most of our horses are bred to be fast out of the gate and to the wire. A fast pace insures that a closer has a snowballs chance in hell of getting to the wire in the money. Since the only grade one races we have are limited to a mile and half at the most it is unusual we would see a horse that could lead and carry speed to the wire going that far. It’s nowhere near what one would consider a stayer. However, if the pace is slow enough a horse can carry their speed over any distance and win. Presious Passion almost won the Breeder’s Cup Turf last year while going out and setting very legitimate fractions. The turf was very firm though which does also play a part in him almost getting the nod. I think that with the right combination of pace and surface the argument of pace making the race could be compromised. Some horses simply can not overcome a slow pace if they close. This was the case several times with Better Talk Now who came from well out of it to win a lot of his races. They say a great horse can overcome anything but I am not a believer in that.
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Look forward to seeing Sanctuaire running at 2 1/2 miles then Reet.
He might not have settled perfectly in the Fred Winter, but settled far better with a better pace and more horses in front of him; than in a four horse, slowly run race.
Ginger
Youwill
see him over 2.5m and further, in time, but there’s little point until he learns to settle. In the meanwhile, he’s still a serious horse, and something like the Tote Gold Trophy will suit him admirably.
Your 2nd para isn’t even worth an answer.Look forward to seeing Sanctuaire running at 2 1/2 miles then Reet.
He might not have settled perfectly in the Fred Winter, but settled far better with a better pace and more horses in front of him; than in a four horse, slowly run race.
Ginger
Youwill
see him over 2.5m and further, in time, but there’s little point until he learns to settle.
If there is "no point in running Sanctuaire at 2 1/2 miles and further until he LEARNS TO SETTLE….
So he will stand a better chance of staying the trip if he SETTLES. If it is not a slowly run race, it helps him SETTLE.WHICH IS EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS MAKING!
So we agree Reet?
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Some horses simply can not overcome a slow pace if they close.
Hi AF.
I’d broadly agree with that, which is very much what happened with Sanctuaire today, but, pace apart, I’d suggest class and distance are also factors.
I know little about US racing, though I’d suspect – with the gentler pace of our races and the preponderance of handicaps – a higher percentage of ours are purposely trained to run in such manner.- Total Posts 17716
So we agree Reet?
God forbid, I should ever be that dim!
Some horses simply can not overcome a slow pace if they close.
Hi AF.
I’d broadly agree with that, which is very much what happened with Sanctuaire today, but, pace apart, I’d suggest class and distance are also factors.
I know little about US racing, though I’d suspect – with the gentler pace of our races and the preponderance of handicaps – a higher percentage of ours are purposely trained to run in such manner.The pace in our races is much faster than yours. I think this has to do a lot with the differences in training and the fact that for the most part you tend to want to have something left at the end. Our horses don’t go out in sets but rather alone or with one other horse. So they tend to get in the mindset of going out at fast intervals. Personally, I think that horses last longer if trained in a relaxed environment and tend to be calmer during the races.
Sometimes, you just wonder whether it’s worth it – with TAPK hijacking another useful discussion to remind us he’d backed a winner, and Ginger informing us that a stronger pace would help a doubtful stayer – it might be better just to watch Jackanory?
When zoologist, C. Richard Taylor studied energy consumption in horses travelling at various gaits, he found a striking pattern. At each gait, there was one narrow range of speed where energy consumption was lowest. These optimum speeds were almost precisely the same as the speed the horse would naturally choose at each gait.
When they were asked to move at unusually slow pace, the energy they spent to move a given distance shot up.
He also found that the total energy expended in travelling a kilometer at a walk, trot, or canter was exactly the same, so long as the horses were allowed to move at the optimal speed for each gait.
~ The Nature Of Horses
I think Mark Johnston is a strong believer in that theory. He lets them run what ever way they feel comfortable and doesn’t give this jocks instructions on where to place the horse.
The most interesting post on this thread for me was the one "googling obscure theorems".
It makes perfect sense to me that a horse’s physiological makeup (notably the proportion of different slow and fast twitch muscle fibres in the major skeletal muscles), determined by genetics, results in it having both an optimum speed and a limit in time or distance over which this speed can be maintained. Of course this can be influenced by maturity, training, feeding and so on but it stands to reason that some horses can run faster comfortably than others while others can maintain their (perhaps slightly slower) speed over longer distances. The art of training is to allow the horse to express this ability to its maximum and run it under conditions which suit. This is easier than it sounds. As punters we really have to be better than the trainers (or at least better than the majority) at knowing a horse’s optimum conditions and realising the true story behind the form figures.- Total Posts 17716
Carv
While I’ll bow to your greater knowledge of equine physiology, I’d take issue with what you deem to be the art of training.
Far from allowing"the horse to express this ability to its maximum and run it under conditions which suit"
it is commonplace for trainers not to run young or novice horses at anywhere near their optimum trips in their formative races, not only as part of their education, but also to find out exactly what they’ve got, and often to ensure that they win more than one handicap along the way. Indeed it’s an art-form practiced by all good trainers, and right through to the best of their horses.
Paul Nicholls, the trainer of the horse in question, is no different from others in this respect, as can be clearly seen from the form of notables such as Kauto Star, Denman, Big Bucks, etc, and I’ve little doubt that Sanctuaire is following a similar path, Whether he will prove as good, or stay as far, is a moot point, though there’s every sign (imo) that we haven’t seen the best of him in either respect, nor will we till he teaches the horse to settle, (He hasn’t yet, even in high class races run at a strong pace, despite Ginger’s jaundiced observations to the contrary).
When he does, (or when he meets a ferocious pace in the meanwhile), I’m reasonably certain we’ll see a better horse, and one who’ll stay furher – something I’d respectfully suggest one will glean far easier from reading and understanding his form, and watching how he’s placed, than they ever will from interrogating google.
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