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What are ‘provisional’ entries?

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  • #11603
    Tuffers
    Member
    • Total Posts 1402

    I always thought that entries were done at the five day stage but six days before the race there appears to be a stage called ‘provisional’ entries. What is the significance of this stage? Do you pay the entry fee at the provisonal stage or does it give you a chance to look at the other provisional entries and then decide whether to do a ‘proper’ entry at the five day stage?

    #231832
    Adrian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1041

    Entries, or confirmation of entries if the race has closed early, are 6 days before the race.

    Tuesday for Monday
    Wednesday for Tuesday
    Thursday for Wednesday
    Friday for Thursday
    Saturday for Friday
    Monday for Saturday (5 day to avoid entries on a Sunday) and Sunday

    If it says provisional it just means that Weatherbys have released the entries but haven’t had a chance to cross check them and therefore subject so minor alteration.

    #231835
    Tuffers
    Member
    • Total Posts 1402

    Entries, or confirmation of entries if the race has closed early, are 6 days before the race.

    Tuesday for Monday
    Wednesday for Tuesday
    Thursday for Wednesday
    Friday for Thursday
    Saturday for Friday
    Monday for Saturday (5 day to avoid entries on a Sunday) and Sunday

    If it says provisional it just means that Weatherbys have released the entries but haven’t had a chance to cross check them and therefore subject so minor alteration.

    Adrian,

    Why are they called 5 day entries when they are done six days before? Also, why do they not have entries on a Sunday but do have declarations?

    #231872
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3326

    If I remember correctly, the entry period was only changed from five to six days when 48 hr decs were introduced across the board and prior to that, we did have a five day entry system – the name has just stuck.

    The reason for no entries on a Sunday is that currently, the revised handicap ratings that apply for racing on a Saturday, are only published and available to Weatherbys on Tuesday morning. Thus, if entries for the following Saturday were made on the previous Sunday, there would be a two day delay before the weights could be allocated.

    I suspect it’s also a weekend staffing issue – no entries to process on a Sunday means fewer people needed and an earlier finish.

    #231874
    Tuffers
    Member
    • Total Posts 1402

    If I remember correctly, the entry period was only changed from five to six days when 48 hr decs were introduced across the board and prior to that, we did have a five day entry system – the name has just stuck.

    The reason for no entries on a Sunday is that currently, the revised handicap ratings that apply for racing on a Saturday, are only published and available to Weatherbys on Tuesday morning. Thus, if entries for the following Saturday were made on the previous Sunday, there would be a two day delay before the weights could be allocated.

    I suspect it’s also a weekend staffing issue – no entries to process on a Sunday means fewer people needed and an earlier finish.

    Thanks, AP.

    #231878
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    Mark Johnston made a good point to me once in that it is unacceptable that trainers are expected to make entries for Saturday racing on a Monday without knowing for definite whether their horse is qualified to run or not because the horses rating is not published until the Tuesday.

    #231886
    Tuffers
    Member
    • Total Posts 1402

    Mark Johnston made a good point to me once in that it is unacceptable that trainers are expected to make entries for Saturday racing on a Monday without knowing for definite whether their horse is qualified to run or not because the horses rating is not published until the Tuesday.

    I think that races on a Saturday use the rating published the previous week for qualification purposes so that shouldn’t be an issue.

    #231893
    Marcus Weedon
    Participant
    • Total Posts 66

    DJ, Tuffers,

    Mr Johnston made the same point to the BHA handicappers en masse. The concern centres on one specific issue; horses that have won their maiden or had their third qualifying run in the previous racing week. They don’t have a rating until Tuesday morning and therefore, in order to make an entry on Monday for a race on the weekend, you have to guess what the new rating will be.

    The way to work around this is, of course, to phone the handicapper up but in the middle of the Flat season ‘the handicapper’ is nine different people, all of whom have very busy phone lines on a Monday morning.

    It’s not perfect and as a member of the handicapping team (then) I did understand his frustration, but in typical fashion he wasn’t at all mollified when I piped up that I’d voluntarily given his secretary my personal mobile number** so that she could be sure of getting hold of me.

    ** no ulterior motive although I’m sure she’s very pretty …

    #231906
    Tuffers
    Member
    • Total Posts 1402

    DJ, Tuffers,

    Mr Johnston made the same point to the BHA handicappers en masse. The concern centres on one specific issue; horses that have won their maiden or had their third qualifying run in the previous racing week. They don’t have a rating until Tuesday morning and therefore, in order to make an entry on Monday for a race on the weekend, you have to guess what the new rating will be.

    The way to work around this is, of course, to phone the handicapper up but in the middle of the Flat season ‘the handicapper’ is nine different people, all of whom have very busy phone lines on a Monday morning.

    It’s not perfect and as a member of the handicapping team (then) I did understand his frustration, but in typical fashion he wasn’t at all mollified when I piped up that I’d voluntarily given his secretary my personal mobile number** so that she could be sure of getting hold of me.

    ** no ulterior motive although I’m sure she’s very pretty …

    Does that mean that the weight a horse carries in a Saturday handicap is based not on its qualifying rating (which is the racing published on the Tuesday 11 days before the day of the race) but the rating it is given the day after you make the entry?

    #231917
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3326

    Tuffers,

    Yes, that’s what it means.

    But frankly, a trainer that can’t estimate within a pound or two what the revised rating of his horse will be from Saturday, should be looking for another job. It’s really not that difficult and if he can’t do it himself, he could easily find someone to do it for him.

    A quick look at the Racing Post rating will provide a significant clue!

    Ditto the Timeform rating ……

    #231923
    Marcus Weedon
    Participant
    • Total Posts 66

    You have it exactly right Tuffers.

    The qualifying rating (from 11 or 12 days before) determines eligibility for the race.

    (qualified at time of entry)

    If the rating is updated in the next week’s cycle, the new rating applies for the purposes of framing the weights.

    If the new rating is higher than the rating band for the race, the horse can still run but will carry a weight above the stated maximum.

    Example: Dobbin is rated 75. He finishes third in a 61-75 handicap on a Saturday. On Monday morning, before the 12 noon entry deadine, he is entered for another 61-75 contest the following Saturday. On Tuesday morning at 8.30am, his new rating of 76 is published. On Tuesday morning from 9am, the weights for the following Saturday are produced and checked.

    Dobbin can still run in the race, because he was qualified at time of entry. If the stated topweight is 9-7, he will carry 9-8.

    The same scenario would of course apply if Dobbin had absolutely bolted up in the first race and had his rating raised from 75 to 90. He would be eligible for the second race but would have to carry 15lb above stated topweight, 10-8.

    Hope that’s clear. The only bit I’ve missed out is the angry phone conversation that takes normally takes place at about 8.45am on Tuesday morning between Dobbin’s trainer and the handicapper!

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