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SWC is as good as a lot of so called "professional jockeys".
It is strange that when Will Kennedy was jocked off Time For Rupert, there was some criticism.
If people are in favour of Barry G getting the ride on Long Run; then they must be in favour of any minor / journeyman rider being jocked off another horse for a top jockey.
Mattie Batchelor was jocked off Carruthers earlier this year. If it wasn’t for Fehily "choosing" the Nicholls second string; Mattie would not have got the ride back in the Hennessy. Yet people were absolutely delighted to see the journeyman jockey winning a big one.
What about Katie Walsh? Beaten just a neck by Geraghty (Oscar Whiskey) on Thousand Stars in the Aintree Hurdle. I think it is great that she was allowed to ride. Yet presumably those who want Sam replaced, also wanted a better jockey on Thousand Stars? If not, what’s the difference?
Value Is EverythingIf not, what’s the difference?
They’re not wealthy, good-looking and a bit posh?
Mike
It’s surely indisputable – Geraghty is far better than SWC.
Could be the difference between a top horse and a great horse.
And yet Mark, you were very vociferous in your criticism of the handicapper. When he thought Brampour would have done better with an established jockey on board. Instead of a 7 lb claimer unable to claim riding against Geraghty on Grandouet.
Sorry, but i cannot remember getting involved in the Brampour debate !
SWC is as good as a lot of so called "professional jockeys".
It is strange that when Will Kennedy was jocked off Time For Rupert, there was some criticism.
If people are in favour of Barry G getting the ride on Long Run; then they must be in favour of any minor / journeyman rider being jocked off another horse for a top jockey.
Mattie Batchelor was jocked off Carruthers earlier this year. If it wasn’t for Fehily "choosing" the Nicholls second string; Mattie would not have got the ride back in the Hennessy. Yet people were absolutely delighted to see the journeyman jockey winning a big one.
What about Katie Walsh? Beaten just a neck by Geraghty (Oscar Whiskey) on Thousand Stars in the Aintree Hurdle. I think it is great that she was allowed to ride. Yet presumably those who want Sam replaced, also wanted a better jockey on Thousand Stars? If not, what’s the difference?
Certain jockeys suit certain horses.
However, i’d wager Long Run would make fewer mistakes at fences with Geraghty onboard, who is better in the saddle and better tactically.
It’s surely indisputable – Geraghty is far better than SWC.
Could be the difference between a top horse and a great horse.
And yet Mark, you were very vociferous in your criticism of the handicapper. When he thought Brampour would have done better with an established jockey on board. Instead of a 7 lb claimer unable to claim riding against Geraghty on Grandouet.
Sorry, but i cannot remember getting involved in the Brampour debate !
Mark,
I don’t wish to push the point, no big deal but you did get involved in the Brampour debate.
You quoted tbracing’s post which said:Quote tbracing:
“…Personally I can’t side with the logic what so ever. I just don’t think Brampour was good enough and even if Ruby had been on board the result wouldn’t have been any different.At a quick scout of the BHA ratings this now has Brampour as the second highest hurdler in the UK (ignoring Peddlers Cross) with only Big Bucks rated higher.
What are peoples thoughts on this? Any idea how Timeform rated it?”
And responded to it by saying:
Quote MarkTT:
“The handicappers make me laugh. I’ve seen horses not dropped in the weights after failing to complete two or three times in succession, with the reason given that they were travelling well at the time and could have won. I’m talking about the second or third last at Cheltenham. How many times have we seen horses fade after the second last at Cheltenham ? Take a few pounds off. If it wins, put it back up”….You then went on to say where else the handicapper made mistakes.
If Brampour’s rating “makes me (you) laugh”, I’d say that’s a quite a big comment / “involvement” in the Brampour thread Mark.
Value Is EverythingTo Plasticpaddy.Riding your own horse is hardly nepotism is it?Is driving your own car another example of nepotism?How about riding your bike?To all I answer No No No.
Think you will find the horse is owned by RWC but I take your point and it is really semantics. SWC in trouble again at Taunton today, wonder if he will get another amateur ban for an ‘offence’ commited in a pro race? These amateur race days must be getting a bit tight to Gold Cup Day!?! Wonder if there could be a rule change on the way? Must stop being so cynical.
I really hope he got a ban for the way he rode at Taunton. Hideous bit of riding. As much as it’s RWC horse to decide what to do with, I think it would be very interesting to see him with a proper jockey up. That said if it was SWC that let Kauto get his head in front on Boxing Day, then keep him up. Best days racing of my life.
You’d have to think that professionals who are race-riding day in and day out are highly likely to have a significant edge over a similarly talented amateur who rides competitively on a relatively irregular basis.
I’d have the best on him if he were mine but it’s pretty clear that the Waley-Cohens derive much of their pleasure from their close family involvement with their horses, and why shouldn’t they? Long Run won’t care whether he’s first past that stick and punters know what they are getting into with Cohen on board so what does it matter (other than as a topic for an interesting philosophical debate – which, I hasten to add, there is nothing wrong with engaging in)?
Mark,
I don’t wish to push the point, no big deal but you did get involved in the Brampour debate.
You quoted tbracing’s post which said:Quote tbracing:
“…Personally I can’t side with the logic what so ever. I just don’t think Brampour was good enough and even if Ruby had been on board the result wouldn’t have been any different.At a quick scout of the BHA ratings this now has Brampour as the second highest hurdler in the UK (ignoring Peddlers Cross) with only Big Bucks rated higher.
What are peoples thoughts on this? Any idea how Timeform rated it?”
And responded to it by saying:
Quote MarkTT:
“The handicappers make me laugh. I’ve seen horses not dropped in the weights after failing to complete two or three times in succession, with the reason given that they were travelling well at the time and could have won. I’m talking about the second or third last at Cheltenham. How many times have we seen horses fade after the second last at Cheltenham ? Take a few pounds off. If it wins, put it back up”….You then went on to say where else the handicapper made mistakes.
If Brampour’s rating “makes me (you) laugh”, I’d say that’s a quite a big comment / “involvement” in the Brampour thread Mark.
I didn’t get involved in the Brampour ratings / jockey debate though. My comments were about the handicapper in general and not the rise in weights for Brampour with regards the jockey, which you said i had ( due to us talking about jockeys in this thread )
Ginge – despite normally agreeing with your views, I cannot, over the highlighting of her riding of Thousand Stars. Despite a previous flaying on this forum over my views on the ride (and the trainers support of her), in my view it was an awful ride, and if I had emplyed a pro jockey, I would be kicking his derriere.
SWC is as good as a lot of so called "professional jockeys".
It is strange that when Will Kennedy was jocked off Time For Rupert, there was some criticism.
If people are in favour of Barry G getting the ride on Long Run; then they must be in favour of any minor / journeyman rider being jocked off another horse for a top jockey.
Mattie Batchelor was jocked off Carruthers earlier this year. If it wasn’t for Fehily "choosing" the Nicholls second string; Mattie would not have got the ride back in the Hennessy. Yet people were absolutely delighted to see the journeyman jockey winning a big one.
What about Katie Walsh? Beaten just a neck by Geraghty (Oscar Whiskey) on Thousand Stars in the Aintree Hurdle. I think it is great that she was allowed to ride. Yet presumably those who want Sam replaced, also wanted a better jockey on Thousand Stars? If not, what’s the difference?
Absolute rubbish Ginger he’s ten times better than a lot of them so called pro jockeys.
There are guys out there that wouldn’t get a job riding work at Seven Barrows. There are dozens and dozens of jockey who will be lucky if they ride more than 3 winners in a season and most of them only won because the horse ran away with them and they couldn’t hold on to him. There are some dreadful jockeys out there.
If anyone walked into the Jockeys changing room and said Sam was a bad jockey they’d take their tights off to a man and hang the begger from the rafters and go out in the cold and freeze their balls off for the man. He is held in the highest regard by his fellow riders so what this lot think they know means sod all. Like you I am all for owners riding their own horses and if you can ride and jump horses most trainers will encourage you to have a go. Anyway knowing a horse inside out compensates a fair bit for any slight failings the man has in comparison to someone like Barry who’s never as much as sat on him
It’s far from cut and dried that Amatuers rider are poor and professionals are good. Old John Lawrence would have ridden half of them to sleep in his heyday, as would Tim Thomson Jones who was so good he’d have been champion jockey had he turned pro as a young man. There a list of Am Jocks the length of your arm who were as good as any pro bar a the elite.
- Total Posts 17716
Before you go completely overboard, HGM, SWC has had just 67 steeplechase rides, and presenting horses at fences, at the speed these races are run, at is an entirely different kettle of fish to point-to-pointing etc. Without knocking him, it’s silly to pretend he’d be anyywhere near as good at it as the obvious alternative.
[quote=
. Anyway knowing a horse inside out compensates a fair bit for any slight failings the man has in comparison to someone like Barry who’s never as much as sat on himSorry Hurdy gurdyman but if you think Barry Geraghty has never sat on Long run you must be a little green. As I keep saying the WCs are perfectly entitled to put who they want on their horse and punters are perfectly entitled to invest or not on the basis of that decision. The horse has to make up the stone of difference that having SWC on board causes and as he is a very good horse he has been able to do that. The only time my opinion will change will be if, God forbid, SWC’s inability to hold the horse leads to the horse rolling onto the forehand going downhill in the Gold Cup, the horse falling and being killed in a highly public and detrimental way. I pray that doesn’t happen but it is more likely to happen with the tiny SWC on board than the considerably bigger and stronger Barry Geraghty. I would be delighted if Long run were to win another Gold Cup but I will never back the horse with an amateur on board, and I will guarantee that I will be ahead at the end of the horses career.
MarkTT,
Please (so as not to confuse) in future it would help me if – you DO NOT quote something in your post that you are apparently NOT commenting on.ie. You Quote tbracing:
“…Personally I can’t side with the logic what so ever. I just don’t think Brampour was good enough and even if Ruby had been on board the result wouldn’t have been any different.At a quick scout of the BHA ratings this now has Brampour as the second highest hurdler in the UK (ignoring Peddlers Cross) with only Big Bucks rated higher.
What are peoples thoughts on this? Any idea how Timeform rated it?”…
Yet your own words in response to the quote is not commenting on Brampour.
Anyone reading the quote and words logically comes to the conclusion that you believe Brampour another example of the handicappers bad work.If that is not the case then fair enough. There is no point in anyone quoting something he/she is not commenting on.
Value Is EverythingThat cynical monkey on my shoulder is asking why SWC’s latest run in with the stewards is hidden on racingpost.com. His ridiculous beating of that horse yesterday would not have looked out of place from a polish cavalry man charging against Panzers in 1939; reminded me of Brod Munro- Wilson being hopped off with at Aintree before inevitably falling at the first!
MarkTT,
Please (so as not to confuse) in future it would help me if – you DO NOT quote something in your post that you are apparently NOT commenting on.Apologies if unclear but, yes, my bugbear was with the handicapper in general, not with his rating of Brampour.
I think the handicappers treatment of some horses, and some stables above others, has led to the Novice Chase races in recent years receiving fewer entrants, as trainers protect their handicap marks. Races with 4 or fewer runners should not be happening, and interested parties need to resolve this matter.
The comment by Phil Smith made at Cheltenham regarding his ideal race result being the 50-1 shot just beating the favourite was poorly received by the top trainers, and illustrates what influences his judgement. Phil Smith should care not one jot about prices and the bookies. If the bookies believe a horse has been underrated, they will price it accordingly.
15lb-20lb + rises are crazy when given to horses who have poor winning strike rates.
Seriously, i’d love him to explain how he had a one time winning novice CROZAN rated within a few pounds of Monkerhostin for the Grand National – just one example of many over the years.
Crozan won a novice chase at Cheltenham by seven lengths. Two years later, despite completing only 2 of 6 races, and winning none, it was handed a rating in the National of about 149-150.Bonkers.
That cynical monkey on my shoulder is asking why SWC’s latest run in with the stewards is hidden on racingpost.com. His ridiculous beating of that horse yesterday would not have looked out of place from a polish cavalry man charging against Panzers in 1939; reminded me of Brod Munro- Wilson being hopped off with at Aintree before inevitably falling at the first!
There are far better jockeys with lower profile daddys.
The Fakenham farce left a sour taste in my mouth, and someone with less influence would have been punished more severely
He flat out lied to the stewards and yet only received a ban for the technical racing offence
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