Home › Forums › Horse Racing › Was Treve the best ever performance by a female racehorse?
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October 6, 2013 at 17:51 #453936
Zarkava?
Zarkava’s Arc performance was: Beat Youmzain 2 lengths, with a dead heat between It’s Gino and Soldiar Of Fortune, with 1 length to Vision D’Etat. Albeit had a bit in hand.
She beat Dar Re Me 2 lengths in the Vermaille.Were either of those performances better than Treve’s today Rich?
Maybe not, I was just offering a suggestion that’s all, Treve was mightily impressive. If only Zarkava came 5 years later, now that would have been a match!
October 6, 2013 at 17:59 #453937How soon we forget Goldikova.
October 6, 2013 at 18:14 #453938Dahlia
October 6, 2013 at 18:43 #453940Given the opposition and race, it is certainly up there.
Pebbles ( Champion Stakes ) and Dahlia ( King George ) are two obvious notable and impressive successes in recent decades.
However, the most impressive winner by any filly ( or mare ) in a classic/Group 1 was by Humble Duty in the 1970 1,000 Guineas.
Trust me, you will never see an easier winner of any classic, anywhere. She was ridden by Lester Piggott. Absolutely sauntered home: it bordered on nonchalance. See the race on YouTube. Seeing is believing.
That’s an interesting one H. What did 1970 1000 Guineas 2nd and 3rd Gleam and Black Satin do? Were they any good?
Gleam was a French trained filly, ridden by Freddy Head. Good but unspectacular. Placed more often than not. Third horse, Black Satin, trained by John Dunlop and ridden by Ron Hutchison, was better, and went on to win Irish 1,000 Guineas, although Humble Duty thrashed her again in the Coronation Stakes at Royal Ascot. Humble Duty was a very good miler, Ginge. She also won the Sussex Stakes that season.
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October 6, 2013 at 19:21 #453944The standard time for a 11/2m around Longchamp is 2min 30secs,God knows how that is standard when most Arcs are well below that,
Danedream
clocked 2m 24secs in 2011 on good ground and also won by 5 lengths,thats 8 secs quicker than the visually impressive
Treve
today.When you look down the field and see our Derby winner and the Grand Prix de St Cloud winner running on the spot you have to ask how many ran below par."The best ever performance by a female horse" No, purely because the early sections were poor.
Pebbles
is still the best filly I’ve seen.If Madame Head says ‘Treve’ is better than
Miesque
then I’ll accept she could well be one of the best,particularly if she does it again next year.7/2fav……….No thanks.
October 6, 2013 at 19:25 #453945How soon we forget Goldikova.
I don’t think anyone forgot about Goldi but I can’t remember any Goldikova win that truly ranks anywhere near what we’ve seen today. In fact, people talk about the Arc and Vermeille, but Zarkava’s defeat of Goldikova in the French 1000 Guineas was in my opinion her most impressive win. She walked her past that day under a hand and heels ride with Soumillon spending most of the last furlong celebrating, and that was on Goldikova’s favourite trip, 1600m, whilst Zarkava herself was a classic distance horse. Unfortunately, this win has largely overlooked because no one really knew what an exceptional filly Goldikova was at the time, largely due to Zarkava making her look ordinary. That’s why I’ve largely considered ZArkava as the best filly/mare of the last decade or so.
But, I think it’s fair to say Treve trumped that today. I would have considered what she did today strictly within the realms of impossibility had I not witnessed it. She was warmest of all before the race, race the widest during it, pulled the hardest, went for home the earliest and yet still finished the strongest. There are many good calls on this thread about fillies who’ve ridiculously impressive in disposing of their rivals in the final straight, but none of them in my mind did it after such an impossible run. I have no doubts had I been on my betfair account that I would have laid her proper in running, so impossible I deemed her task to win from there.
October 6, 2013 at 19:52 #453947The premise assumes that 12f horses/races are superior to 8f etc. What Moonlight Cloud did 1hr later was just as impressive, even if you argue that the depth of opposition was not the same as the Arc.
October 6, 2013 at 20:07 #453948The premise assumes that 12f horses/races are superior to 8f etc. What Moonlight Cloud did 1hr later was just as impressive, even if you argue that the depth of opposition was not the same as the Arc.
The "depth of opposition" has everything to do with it Freeradical.
What Moonlight Cloud achieved was undoubtedly impressive, terrific turn of foot… But she beat Gordon Lord Byron 3 lengths with Garswood and Dux Scholar short necks away. The second is a Group 1 winner, but not Orfevre’s class. Garswood and Dux Scholar are not of the same quality as Intello or Kizuna.It does not matter what distance the race is run over. Frankel raced mainly at 1m, but still put up better performances.
There may have been just as "impressive" performances over the years, but can any one female form performance be rated as highly?
Value Is EverythingOctober 6, 2013 at 21:32 #453954The standard time for a 11/2m around Longchamp is 2min 30secs,God knows how that is standard when most Arcs are well below that,
Danedream
clocked 2m 24secs in 2011 on good ground and also won by 5 lengths,thats 8 secs quicker than the visually impressive
Treve
today.When you look down the field and see our Derby winner and the Grand Prix de St Cloud winner running on the spot you have to ask how many ran below par."The best ever performance by a female horse" No, purely because the early sections were poor.
Pebbles
is still the best filly I’ve seen.If Madame Head says ‘Treve’ is better than
Miesque
then I’ll accept she could well be one of the best,particularly if she does it again next year.7/2fav……….No thanks.
Official going reports are just one man’s opinion of the ground Gord. It may have been officially "Good" going on Danedream’s Arc day, but most of the other races produced fast (at least good-firm surface) times too. In contrast to today it was also run at a good pace from the start, conditions to suit a fast time. Just because today’s fractions were not even, they were not farcical. Only 1.54 secs slower than Racing Post Standard, which compares well with other times today.
I’d rather believe my own eyes rather than the trainer Gord, Mme Head said she would not have run Treve in today’s race. She’s not infalible.
Of course not all the Arc runners ran to form Gord. Flintshire and Ruler Of The World and Al Kazeem do not need to have produced their best – for the winner’s performance to be rated exceptional. I’d estimate the two Japanese horses ran to form, both Intello and Penglai Pavillion improved a little, Going Somewhere probably ran somewhere near his best.
Agree Gord, Pebbles easy 3 length win from Slip Anchor in the Champion Stakes is one of the best. Slip Anchor was (at his best) better than Orfevre, but was the Derby winner at his best at 1m2f? He only scraped second from Palace Music. French horse ran to form. Winner of the 1984 race, but unless this one run was much better than any other performance – Palace Music was not up to the quality of Slip Anchor’s Epsom form. Therefore, imo the latter in all probability ran below his very best. Even so, Pebbles produced an exceptional performance at Newmarket. Can understand why someone would consider it the best they’ve seen, even with Slip Anchor below form.
It’s a game of opinions.
Value Is EverythingOctober 6, 2013 at 21:49 #453955Dawn Run.
The end.
Mike
Good shout
October 6, 2013 at 23:10 #453968Zarkava did face a better field in her Arc win than Treve. Outside of Orfevre the field this year seemed rather depleted. Zarkava at least had to contend with Soldier of Fortune, Vision d’Etat, and Duke of Marmalade.
How soon we forget Goldikova.
I don’t think anyone forgot about Goldi but I can’t remember any Goldikova win that truly ranks anywhere near what we’ve seen today. In fact, people talk about the Arc and Vermeille, but Zarkava’s defeat of Goldikova in the French 1000 Guineas was in my opinion her most impressive win. She walked her past that day under a hand and heels ride with Soumillon spending most of the last furlong celebrating, and that was on Goldikova’s favourite trip, 1600m, whilst Zarkava herself was a classic distance horse. Unfortunately, this win has largely overlooked because no one really knew what an exceptional filly Goldikova was at the time, largely due to Zarkava making her look ordinary. That’s why I’ve largely considered ZArkava as the best filly/mare of the last decade or so.
I would argue that Goldikova was at her best in 2010 (better than she was as a 3yo, anyway), and her performance in the Breeders Cup Mile that year was better than Treve’s Arc. Goldi didn’t often win by large margins, though, so she might not have looked as impressive in victory.
October 6, 2013 at 23:14 #453969The more I watch Treve’s performance this afternoon, the more impressed I get. Isn’t the opposite meant to happen?
She has such a wonderful stride. It’s scary to think that, given her tendency to pull and fluent stride, she could be even more impressive granted a stronger pace.
She has such a high cruising speed and can quicken in the blink of an eye (literally) that she could be just as effective over a mile.
I hope against hope that Moonlight Cloud stays in training next season. Treve (sounds common in English, but sexy in French!) vs Moonlight Cloud over eight furlongs would be a race to savour.
October 6, 2013 at 23:48 #453971Zarkava did face a better field in her Arc win than Treve. Outside of Orfevre the field this year seemed rather depleted. Zarkava at least had to contend with Soldier of Fortune, Vision d’Etat, and Duke of Marmalade.
How soon we forget Goldikova.
I don’t think anyone forgot about Goldi but I can’t remember any Goldikova win that truly ranks anywhere near what we’ve seen today. In fact, people talk about the Arc and Vermeille, but Zarkava’s defeat of Goldikova in the French 1000 Guineas was in my opinion her most impressive win. She walked her past that day under a hand and heels ride with Soumillon spending most of the last furlong celebrating, and that was on Goldikova’s favourite trip, 1600m, whilst Zarkava herself was a classic distance horse. Unfortunately, this win has largely overlooked because no one really knew what an exceptional filly Goldikova was at the time, largely due to Zarkava making her look ordinary. That’s why I’ve largely considered ZArkava as the best filly/mare of the last decade or so.
I would argue that Goldikova was at her best in 2010 (better than she was as a 3yo, anyway), and her performance in the Breeders Cup Mile that year was better than Treve’s Arc. Goldi didn’t often win by large margins, though, so she might not have looked as impressive in victory.
Not sure about your Arc comparison Miss Woody. Today royally stuffed without breaking sweat were the Derby winner, the Leger winner, The Japan Derby & Niel winner, The French Guineas and Derby winner, then Eclipse & POW winner, the Grand Prix Paris winner, and Orfevre (Foy winner) who is certainly top drawer.
Only Novellist, The Fugue, and perhaps Trading Leather (Irish Derby winner), were missing from the who’s who of middle distance turf racing. It was a heck of a renewal and she won puling a cart.
October 7, 2013 at 00:02 #453973Treve’s Arc must surely rank as one of the best performances by a female horse. However, she must do a helluva lot more if anyone is thinking of labelling her as the female equivalent of Frankel.
Sun Princess winning the 1983 Oaks by 12 lengths was pretty impressive too. She was a troubled horse though who didn’t give her true running on a few occasions.
October 7, 2013 at 06:58 #453975Great a performance as it was surely it needs to be tempered by the fact it was very soft ground?
October 7, 2013 at 07:16 #453976Treve’s Arc must surely rank as one of the best performances by a female horse. However, she must do a helluva lot more if anyone is thinking of labelling her as the female equivalent of Frankel.
… and she needs to continue improving weight for age just to maintain how good people think she is now,
October 7, 2013 at 11:19 #453988Great a performance as it was surely it needs to be tempered by the fact it was very soft ground?
Was it Andrew?
I’d be interested to know what Blues Brother thinks, but judging by the times yesterday I’d call it only good-soft.Abbeye just
0.7
secs slower than Racing Post Standard (admittedly on a different course).
Arc just1.54
secs slower than Standard despite the less than even pace.
Cadran only6.38
secs slower than Standard, and that over 2m4f, time of 4 mins
24
secs . Last year’s race on very soft was 4m
43
secs (
25.6
secs slower than standard).
If the ground was "very soft" then the time would make Treve’s performance even better.
As per usual Timeform’s going assessment of Arc Day is not as soft as the Longchamp "official". RUK’s French correspondent Claude Charlet says, the French are not too concerned with the accuracy of going reports.
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