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I think Sea the Stars and Zofonic’s Guineas were ran on similar going and recorded better times.
That doesn’t mean everything though as Makfi too had a better time and like you say if they went early against Frankel to close the gap they would get broke.Blackbeard to conquer the World
Hi everyone. Best wishes to you all in these trying times.
What interests me particularly is how the great jockeys would have ridden horses from other eras.
What tactics Lester would have employed on Frankel.
Great thread Gladiateur.
I will take a while to ponder, mix the jockeys around a bit and reach an unfathomable outcome.@Cork All Star – Zafonic was a brilliant horse who unfortunately didn’t had a long career. Kingman always reminded me as reincarnation of Zafonic.
Dont think applying times to Frankels guineas is ever a good idea
The way Queally let him run is not how you run fast times, very inefficient way of running a mile
Just shows Frankels rare ability that a jockey as bad as Queally didnt get him beat (though he almost did)
@Austin. Agree about Zafonic and Kingman. I also like your order of the runners! Although I would swap around Zafonic and Dancing Brave.
I would also swap Mark of Esteem and Camelot. I think Camelot was comfortably the least good of these over a mile. He only scrambled home in a moderate Guineas. I think quite a few Guineas winners of the 2010s would have beaten him. And Kingman would have laughed at him over a mile.
I have taken the view that this is just about a race over a mile, not an assessment of each horse’s final reputation. That is why I have rated Zafonic so highly. I did consider putting him second.
A lot of these horses were ultimately better over further than a mile. As Gladiteur says, have a look at the turn of foot Zafonic shows. Would some of these horses really have lived with him? I have my doubts!
Ooh I say, a great thread to get me out of hibernation
Hope you’re all doing well and wish you all the best in health.I was only thinking of a contest similar to this the other day but with Arc winners instead.
As for this 2000, it is very difficult indeed. Frankel instantly springs to mind. The way how he ripped the innards out of the opposition in 2011 was ruthless. To destroy and string out a field trailing back over a furlong away (in a 30 mph headwind) underlines what kind of a brazen, high-energy beast Frankel was.
That said, the likes of these are four big spanners in the works…
Brigadier Gerard – Like Frankel, an unbeaten monster over a mile. His ability to hit top gear in three strides would cause major problems for any opposition whatever the circumstances. This one makes me feel very afraid of what he could do.
El Gran Senor – A silky mover with a smooth transition from cruising speed to a sprint finish. In his 2000, I backed Lear Fan to win but was left astounded at how El Gran senor travelled and took the race by the scruff of the neck. OK, he beaten a true sprinter in Chief Singer but still a formidable performance.
Nijinsky – Just the imposing look of him raises concern. What strikes me about him is that he made winning look so easy. This kinda gives him a mysterious aura of invincibility and what engine lies under the bonnet. This is the one horse that gets into my head and twists things.
Dancing Brave – A target horse with a lethal sting. I think some people forget just how great he could’ve been if he’d stayed at a mile. Easily swept a top sprinter aside (Green Desert) in his guineas.
Regarding Sea The Stars and Zafonic…
Sea The Stars had qualities like a warrior … stamina in abundance and a terrific battler. Not one to get into a tussle with. However, the horse he beat in his 2000, Delegator, turned out to be a bit of a damp squib IMO. I honestly believe that Dubawi Gold would’ve beat Delegator in any race.
Zafonic looked a world beater in his 2000. Sniped the opposition and shot them all down in a few devastating strides. On that particular day, I honestly thought I was witnessing one of the all-time greats coming to the fore. Sadly, it wasn’t to be. Nevertheless, a brilliant guineas winner and I give him the verdict over Sea The Stars.
All things taken into consideration (still not sure though)…
1) Frankel
2) Brigadier Gerard
3) Dancing BraveFor 3rd place, I was torn between Dancing Brave and El Gran Senor. So I pondered about Chief Singer and Green Desert having a sprint over 6F and came to my conclusion.
Looking back over the list, three great milers finished second in the Guineas during the time in question: Kris, Hawk Wing and Kingman.
Kris was a little before my racing lifetime but I think he had a troubled preparation. Hawk Wing got a Spencer masterclass and Kingman was perhaps disadvantaged by the draw. I like James Doyle but I am not convinced it was his finest hour either.
Maybe the Hawk Wing who won the Lockinge is the only one who could have lived with Frankel over a mile?
“Maybe the Hawk Wing who won the Lockinge is the only one who could have lived with Frankel over a mile?”
Doubt it. Had Hawk Wing overhauled Rock Of Gibraltar and qualified for this race of champions, I’d have him midfield at best. Frankel, Brigadier Gerard, El Gran Senor, Zafonic and Mark Of Esteem (on his QEII performance) were all better pure milers than Hawk Wing, in my opinion, and I’d also take Nijinsky, Dancing Brave and Sea The Stars over the Ballydoyle colt over longer trips.
It’s ironic, come to think of it, that Coolmore’s scattergun approach cost their best horse (ability-wise) his place in history, as Hawk Wing was beaten by inferior stablemates in both of his classics. Granted, he was outstayed by High Chaparral at Epsom but if that one hadn’t run Hawk Wing would’ve been a resounding winner of the Derby.
1st Brigadier Gerard
2nd Frankel
3rd Sea the StarsBlackbeard to conquer the World
1. Nijinsky
2. Frankel
3. Brigadier Gerard
Lester Piggott on board Frankel, a different result.
Nijinsky was just so authoritative and any jockey imposed weakness was ruthlessly dealt with.
Triple crown winner amongst so much else.
It took little away from the great Frankel that he never raced outside of England. Yet, how wonderful it would have been had he crossed the pond, the irish sea and the channel.
Frankel certainly the greatest but not in the guineas on that run.Also it shows since 2012 (Camelot), we didnt had a great Guiness won by a superstar horse. Dawn Approach, Night of Thunder, Gleneagles, Galileo Gold, Churchill, Magna Grecia – all were mediocre horses. I had high hopes on Saxon Warrior but he too disappointed.
Beaten to my original 3 choices by Illavim, so I’ll slightly deviate and
plump for these 31. Frankel
2. Nijinsky
3. ZafonicI can only go back to the year 2000 as that is when I became obsessed with Flat Racing, so,
1st, Frankel,
2nd, Sea the Stars,
3rd, Camelot.“Frankel miles ahead at the moment, are they at the Bushes yet?”
I think he’s already in his horsebox home. Tight for the places, though.
A seemingly fine day for it but I awoke not to the sound of a lark or the mellifluous tones of a Tudor minstrel strumming to a fine harmony fit enough to awaken an old champion of champions, but rather to the mixed grating of an old bag of bones creaking to the accompaniment of worn out bed springs. Head felt like a piece of fudge as I wandered along the passage avoiding the cold age reality room with the mirror, and still does even after a caffeine injection in a winged chair. Well the glass ball arrived from the Orient and it cost an arm and a leg so let’s see if it’s dynamite and does the biz.
Hmmm Says here, reading the hand written instructions, and looks to me like the hand of a little old man,and suspect he’s locked up somewhere in these dangerous times.
Squinting a blue pair of believers…
“the best results are achieved if done on the day of the race and at the appropriate time. Now for the ultimate test which of these fine beasts, I’ll avoid the word herd, is the Terminator of all time – There’s no money back guarantee with it – but my instinct tells me this ball could prove to be rejuvenating.
“I’ll be back ”
flatcapgamble…just scraps for din dins the last few days and he’s forced me to rewrite it.
He loves his dog
As much as he loves poo
But as poo fades
His dog will always stay true.
Beautiful day for racing.
Pack some sarnies, fill up the hip flask. Get the flannels and jacket out, hat? Shades.
Jump on the train. Wander down and back up the high street, jump on the bus to the course.
I’m so looking forward to seeing one of the greatest match ups of all time. What a field!Instead doing the social distance shoping in the co-op.
Still, it is good to be alive.
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