- This topic has 46 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I mentioned Oh So Sharp simply for her versatility in winning the fillies Triple Crown (races over 8F, 12F & 14F), fair play on mentions of Miesque & Time Charter and I can’t believe I overlooked a great mare like Triptych (who incidentally was beaten 5L on her favoured soft ground by Oh So Sharp in the Oaks).
Triptych was a stalwart in the mid/late 80s as she not only crossed swords with Oh So Sharp but also Dancing Brave and Reference Point during that time, such a shame that she was killed in an accident at stud in US only a year after retirement – looking back at that time I also realised I missed mentioning Pebbles who was the first mare to win the Eclipse when beating Rainbow Quest in 85 and who could forget her Champion St stroll against the Derby winner Slip Anchor and her Breeders Cup win with the famous commentators line off ‘its England’s super filliy Pebbles’ – rather poignant as her trainer Clive Brittain is retiring at the end of this season.
It really depends on how far you want to go back in time as there are a lot of mares that quite frankly pre date Timeform and cannot be realistically rated, the likes of Pretty Polly was mentioned and in particular Sceptre who as a 3yr old in 1902 finished 2nd in the Lincoln Handicap before going on to win the St James Palace St, Nassau St, 1000g, 2000g, Oaks, St Leger and also managed a 4th place in the Derby!
If that wasn’t impressive enough, as a 2yr old she had won Woodcote St at Epsom and the July St at Newmarket, whilst as a 4 yr old she won the Hardwick St, Jockey Club St, Duke of York St and Champion St. In her final season she was winless but her 3 races resulted with 2nd in Coronation Cup and 3rd in both the Hardwick St and Ascot Gold Cup!!
A truly remarkable filly/mare and the only horse to win four British Classics outright and I think we can safely say that that is record that will never be repeated or even attempted.
How was running over her optimum trip in her own country “running out of her comfort zone” Jolly? With the greatest respect my dear Australian friend we all know from your history on here that Frankel bashing was your thing. There was always the Black Caviar V Frankel thing. Fair enough mate. Though even your own Peter Moody was blown away by THAT performance at Royal Ascot. If you REALLY look deep inside yourself can you HONESTLY say with hand on heart that your opinions are not swayed just EVER SO SLIGHTLY by the fact that you are Aussie through and through and the thought that the greatest ever racehorse came from Pommie Land is an open sore that will stay with you til your final day? Come on Jolly – be honest.
Joni for a start Frankel only had 14 runs, Black Caviar went on to win another 11, she had more group 1 wins then he had starts. You are delusional Joni to rate Frankel’s races above the quality of Treve’s. They didn’t have the balls to leave their own back yard, Treve and Black Caviar did. Joni you are a pom, so a French or Australian horse would never rate on top in your opinion… So You Think won 14 from 23 and 10 group 1’s he raced in 6 countries at least they took them on…Treve was a great race mare but her optimum conditions were 12F with soft ground, which made her rather one dimensional as a racehorse – her first Arc win was no doubt her best performance but any race that is run on very soft ground has to be viewed (form wise) with some scepticism as we know only a small number of horse can cope with those type of race conditions.
For me if she had won a 3rd Arc, she would of held a unique place in racing history but personally I don’t think it would have made her the greatest mare of all time – for various reasons there are a few other mares in the last 40 yrs alone that I would not rate Treve above and they are as follows:
Unfortunately they are all missing a couple of Arc’s… I’m afraid a Hollywood Invitational,Prince Of Wales or a HK Vase,etc,etc,etc just doesn’t cut it against the best quality race in the world…
Dahlia
1973: Prix Saint-Alary, Irish Oaks, King George, Prix Neil & Washington DC International 1973.
1974: King George, Benson & Hedges Gold Cup (now Juddmonte International), Man of War Stakes, Canadian International & Grand Prix de Saint Cloud
1975: Benson & Hedges Gold Cup
1976: Hollywood Invitational Handicap.
Voted European Horse of the Year in 1973, United Kingdon Horse of the Year 1973 & 74 and US Champion Turf Horse 1974Allez France
1973: French 1000g, French Oaks & Prix Vermeille
1974: Prix d’Ispahan, Prix Ganay, Prix Foy & Arc
1975: Prix Ganay, Prix Foy & Prix Dollar
Voted 1973 French Champion Three Year Old Filly of the Year, French Horse of the Year and Older Horse of the Year for 1974Oh So Sharp
1984: Solario Stakes & Fillies Mile
1985: 1000g, Oaks & St Leger (Fillies Triple Crown)
Voted European Three Year Old Filly of the Year 1985Ouija Board
2004: Oaks, Irish Oaks & Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf
2005: Princess Royal Stakes & Hong Kong Vase
2006: Prince of Wales Stakes, Nassau Stakes & Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf
Voted 2004 European Champion Three Year Old Filly, European Horse of the Year (2004 & 2006), Eclipse Award for Outstanding Female Turf Horse (2004 & 2006) and European Champion Older Horse 2006Zarkava
2007: Prix Marcel Boussac
2008: French 1000g, French Oaks, Prix Vermeille & Arc
Voted 2008 European Champion 3 Year Old Filly and European Horse of the YearGoldikova
2008: Prix Rothschild, Prix du Moulin & Breeders Cup Mile
2009: Prix Rothschild, Falmouth Stakes, Prix Jacques Le Marois & Breeders Cup Mile
2010: Prix Rothschild, Prix d’Ispahan, Queen Anne Stakes. Prix de la Foret, Breeders Cup Mile
2011: Prix Rothschild & Prix d’Ispahan
Voted European Champion Older Horse (2009 & 2010), European Horse of the Year 2010 and American Champion Female Turf Horse (2009 & 2010)The interesting thing to note is that Timeform’s top rated mare is one by the name of Star of India on 138, who won five races at 5F in 1955. I haven’t been able to find anything about her online so I am not sure what she did that merited such a high rating.
Joni as for ‘out of Treve’s comfort zone’ I was actually referring to the fact that she actually travelled out of her own country…
Joni as for ‘out of Treve’s comfort zone’ I was actually referring to the fact that she actually travelled out of her own country…
No, you clearly weren’t “she raced out of her comfort zone in the greatest race in the world”, unless you think the Prince of Wales is the greatest in the world.
And, to be honest, I really couldn’t give a damn about Frankel going for the Champions Stakes rather than the Arc in his 4-year old season. The Champions was a much much better race that year. In the Arc, he would have had to beat Solemia (who?), with Orfevre having thrown the race away. Just to emphasise the point of how weak that race was, Masterstroke, Haya Landa and Yellow And Green completed the placings, not sure how many of us even remember these. Instead, Frankel went on to face the second highest-rated horse in the world back then in Cirrus Des Aigles (same rating as Black Caviar at the time I believe) and Nathaniel. Cirrus himself would have probably won that Arc were he not a gelding, and had won the previous Champions Stakes against So You Think on ground clearly favouring the latter. As a matter of fact, wasn’t the Champions Stakes the highest rated horserace in the world that year according to the newly established Longines rankings?
One thing I’ve never understood is the idea that racing outside of a horses native country somehow improves it’s merit as a racehorse. It simply doesn’t make any sense. Had Frankel beat Cirrus Des Aigles at Longchamp instead of at Ascot how is that any better a performance?
It’s 2015 now, in order to get to France from the UK you don’t even have to board a plane or sail on a boat.
It’s all here Jolly. As you know, even Black Caviar’s trainer had to throw his hands up – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQ4xTCTDtE
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I see Peacock has been renamed ‘the horse that got closer to Golden Horn than what Treve did’……
Blackbeard to conquer the World
One thing I’ve never understood is the idea that racing outside of a horses native country somehow improves it’s merit as a racehorse. It simply doesn’t make any sense. Had Frankel beat Cirrus Des Aigles at Longchamp instead of at Ascot how is that any better a performance?
It’s 2015 now, in order to get to France from the UK you don’t even have to board a plane or sail on a boat.
Well let me explain, because it is harder, Yeats looked very,very ordinary in Australia, was he a better horse than that yes, but he wasn’t on his home turf.
It’s all here Jolly. As you know, even Black Caviar’s trainer had to throw his hands up – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQ4xTCTDtE
Joni, Moody is entitled to his opinion, other non Australians have stated that Black Caviar was the best horse in the world, but it is not about that it is about comparing a Queen Anne to an Arc… Joni it’s no use arguing with you in regards to Frankel, you have an unnatural love for him, I wouldn’t be surprised if you have booked yourself in to be served by him this season…
Joni as for ‘out of Treve’s comfort zone’ I was actually referring to the fact that she actually travelled out of her own country…
No, you clearly weren’t “she raced out of her comfort zone in the greatest race in the world”, unless you think the Prince of Wales is the greatest in the world.
I did state Treve had raced outside of her country…So basically within that sentence I was saying she had raced out of her comfort zone and in the greatest race in the world. It was meant as 2 separate meanings as for the Champions Stakes being a better race than the Arc well so happens the Champions stks is 10 f and the Arc is 12f which Frankel may have struggled to run.
And, to be honest, I really couldn’t give a damn about Frankel going for the Champions Stakes rather than the Arc in his 4-year old season. The Champions was a much much better race that year. In the Arc, he would have had to beat Solemia (who?), with Orfevre having thrown the race away. Just to emphasise the point of how weak that race was, Masterstroke, Haya Landa and Yellow And Green completed the placings, not sure how many of us even remember these. Instead, Frankel went on to face the second highest-rated horse in the world back then in Cirrus Des Aigles (same rating as Black Caviar at the time I believe) and Nathaniel. Cirrus himself would have probably won that Arc were he not a gelding, and had won the previous Champions Stakes against So You Think on ground clearly favouring the latter. As a matter of fact, wasn’t the Champions Stakes the highest rated horserace in the world that year according to the newly established Longines rankings?
Frankel ( a top of the ground horse ) beat Cirrus Des Aigles on the latter’s favoured ground conditions. He would have beaten the French gelding no matter where the race was run . The great Brigadier Gerard ; still rated Frankel’s equal by some very experienced judges , didn’t run outside England , but nevertheless dispatched all comers – even the best the French had to offer. Again , he did not need to travel abroad in order to prove his greatness . His Achilles Heal was very soft and heavy ground , yet still managed to overcome those unfavourable conditions in the ’71 St James’ Palace Stakes and ’72 Eclipse .
Two of the aforementioned great French fillies ; Dahlia and Allez France , had outstanding careers . Dahlia travelled abroad and won many good international races , whereas Allez France was a poor traveller and fared badly in the few international races she competed in . Yet , with that considered , Allez France still proved Dahlia’s superior in all of their six meetings – all on French soil ; and on one occasion thrashed her greatest rival by 15 lengths . The point being that some horses travel and acclimatize better than others – and because they do , it does not mean they are superior to those who do not .
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
It’s all here Jolly. As you know, even Black Caviar’s trainer had to throw his hands up – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQ4xTCTDtE
Joni, Moody is entitled to his opinion, other non Australians have stated that Black Caviar was the best horse in the world, but it is not about that it is about comparing a Queen Anne to an Arc… Joni it’s no use arguing with you in regards to Frankel, you have an unnatural love for him, I wouldn’t be surprised if you have booked yourself in to be served by him this season…
hahahahahhaha!!! Genius Jolly!!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.