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Well, I guess her trainer can’t a read a race then coz’ she just said on French TV that she couldn’t find any excuse today and that Golden Horn was just too good today anyway. Stop acting so butthurt, Treve got herself beaten by refusing to settle. Jarnet is an excellent horseman and rarely races outwide or produce his horse early. Treve would have pulled even more if left in the pack.
You need to educate yourself about racing or how to read a race, obviously you know next to nothing…Me butthurt (that is so American, please speak proper English now…), I watched a little game of Rugby here my time this morning, no hurting ‘butt’ here …
And no…That’s not the way it works, if you give a horse cover ,there is more chance of them settling rather than leaving them out in the open, as for her trainer saying that I think when she see’s the replay her mind may change…
“Greatest ever” tags can surely only be subjective as none of us REALLY know. Had Treve won today she would have had a case but my feeling is she is quite brilliant on soft ground and just very good on quick. So she lacks that bit of versatility. It is well known what I think of Frankel but of course I am English and 44 so well aware that my opinions are shaped by my stats!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Always difficult to make comparisons, particularly as Frankel did most of his racing at shorter trips. You would have to think Frankel would be the superior over a mile but over further I am not sure. A bit like the Brigadier Gerard v Mill Reef debate.
Visually, I have been more impressed with Treve. The Arc is a bigger event than anything Frankel ever won and hopefully this afternoon Treve will have pocketed her third win. Personally, I have a feeling that if you swopped an on-song Treve for Cirrus Des Aigles I doubt very much that Frankel would have retired unbeaten.
Mug’s bet at a silly price
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Beaten by the ground methinks..Golden Horn didn’t settle very well at times either and he still won.
I think you have to consider the position of the main protagonists throughout the race. The first three were always right up there while Treve was considerably further back.
Add to that that the ground was very fast – Top Speed had the race run at 3.27 sec below standard and six of the races below standard.
Lets not get to carried away in the comparisons with Frankel, this mare has won the best race in the world twice.Before today Treve had won double Frankel’s prizemoney with 2 less starts !!! Her record will go down as far superior to Frankel, he was a great horse and unbeaten but really tested just the once out of his comfort zone. People need to get their one eyed blinkers off and look at facts, 2 less starts double his prizemoney, Frankel won nothing like an Arc. Jarnet butchered her again today, a horrible ride covering more ground then the early settlers.Black Caviar won 25 out of 25 but there were no Arc wins there, Treve is far superior to both Frankel and Black Caviar, anyone thinking different has their blinkers on…. As for Group 1 wins Frankel may have had more and Black Caviar had 15 Group 1 wins but they ain’t the Arc…
most ridiculously flawed argument I think I have ever read on here, comparing prize money to horse ability / greatness..
Superstars like Moon Ballad / African Story / Monterosso – yes remember them all won near double Frankel’s prize money due to winning a race in the sandpit in Dubai. Can probably rattle off hundreds in the money laden racing industry of Japan / Hong Kong / Singapore also.
For what its worth, Frankel time and time again backed up with what it beat and how far he beat horses provided far better ratings than Treve, great racemare, but had limitations re ground / track / and probably a less then top class jockey doing the steering
Using prize money as a barometer of greatness is obviously hugely flawed, anyone doing so would have Red Cadeaux as a 66% better horse then Frankel for example.
However I have always thought it one of the great racing disappointments, that after a bloodless win over 10.5f at York, Frankel went to Ascot rather than Longchamp, and then swerved the Breeders Cup in to the bargain.
Still the best flat horse I’ve seen by a distance mind you.
BUY THE SUN
Had Treve got her head in front at the line on Sunday she would not have been the greatest ever racehorse. Multiple wins do not make the “greatest ever”. imo The “greatest ever” racehorse can not have inferior ability than other racehorses. Needed to beat Golden Horn by many lengths to be better than Frankel. But there is not much point judging anything against Frankel.
To put it in to perspective Timeform rated Frankel 147, the greatest ever female racehorses were rated 136. Treve has better credentials of being “the greatest ever” female, or even better credentials of “the greatest ever” 3 year old filly – based purely on her first Arc victory over Orfevre.
Treve did not need to be at her very best to win the 2014 Arc and palpably does not deserve to be considered the “greatest ever racehorse” on that effort.
Going possibly against her Sunday, times on the weekend suggests ground on the fast side. However, going requirements are not a given. Many point to the poor Royal Ascot run as evidence, but trainer was in such poor form at the time and out of form for most of last season. Only coming back to form shortly before the 2014 Arc. This term beat Arc runner-up Flintshire in Prix Saint-Cloud on – similar ground to Sunday – not all out by an easy 1 1/4 lengths. It’s unlikely the exposed Flintshire has improved at all in the interim.
Despite wanting to hang – on Simon Rowlands sectional times – Treve put in a finish faster than any who beat her. First three having the run of the race with Jarnet coming from further back than ideal in a less than truly run race. Make no mistake, given the ride Treve did well to get as close as she did and deseves to be considered at least the second best in the race (ie with a better ride would’ve been at least 2nd). So imo ground might have made a bit (only a bit) of difference – the ride/s (Dettori’s particularly good, Jarnet’s bad) – made a massive difference.
https://www.timeform.com/racing/articles/timeform-sectional-debrief-special-arc-weekend-2015-5102015
Value Is EverythingFor those saying prizemoney is not a barometer make sure you have a logical argument. Treve never raced in the ‘sandpit’, never had 60 starts like a Red Cadeaux. Treve raced only in France and England, Treve’s first Arc win was better than Frankel’s best, she had a horrid run and just blew them away in an Arc !!! Timeform has always been biased to English/Irish horses. Now remember my point Treve had a couple less starts and double the prizemoney because she raced out of her comfort zone in the greatest race in the world !!! Her prizemoney has come from dual Arc wins !!! Lets say an Arc is a 10 out of ten, Frankel’s best quality race could only be rated a 7 or maybe an 8 in comparison. So remember this is a comparison between Frankel and Treve not some horse who has had umpteen starts to acquire more prizemoney. Apart from the Arc and a few of races Europe doesn’t have the prizemoney to match the likes of the UAE, Australia etc so the biggest prizemoney there usually means the best races. Now my point is not that Treve is the best horse to have ever raced, it is probably hard to give her that title, though she put in the best performance I have ever seen winning her first Arc. Whilst Frankel was brilliant I think the fact that he never travelled outside of England is against him, it can look easy on your home turf, much more difficult to travel and win.
Freddy Head saying the ride and instructions were bad and too much to win an Arc, spot on ! His sister knows her instructions were suicidal now but it’s hard to admit you have just thrown away an Arc ‘she had every chance’ … As Freddy said horses were not making up ground from back in the field that day and given a normal run she wins the Arc…
On the only occasion Treve raced outside of her home country of France she finishing 3rd to The Fugue at Royal Ascot.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but I bet there is only one person on planet earth who rates Treve’s 1st Arc a better performance then Frankel’s Queen Ann.
BUY THE SUN
How was running over her optimum trip in her own country “running out of her comfort zone” Jolly? With the greatest respect my dear Australian friend we all know from your history on here that Frankel bashing was your thing. There was always the Black Caviar V Frankel thing. Fair enough mate. Though even your own Peter Moody was blown away by THAT performance at Royal Ascot. If you REALLY look deep inside yourself can you HONESTLY say with hand on heart that your opinions are not swayed just EVER SO SLIGHTLY by the fact that you are Aussie through and through and the thought that the greatest ever racehorse came from Pommie Land is an open sore that will stay with you til your final day? Come on Jolly – be honest.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Treve was a great race mare but her optimum conditions were 12F with soft ground, which made her rather one dimensional as a racehorse – her first Arc win was no doubt her best performance but any race that is run on very soft ground has to be viewed (form wise) with some scepticism as we know only a small number of horse can cope with those type of race conditions.
For me if she had won a 3rd Arc, she would of held a unique place in racing history but personally I don’t think it would have made her the greatest mare of all time – for various reasons there are a few other mares in the last 40 yrs alone that I would not rate Treve above and they are as follows:
Dahlia
1973: Prix Saint-Alary, Irish Oaks, King George, Prix Neil & Washington DC International 1973.
1974: King George, Benson & Hedges Gold Cup (now Juddmonte International), Man of War Stakes, Canadian International & Grand Prix de Saint Cloud
1975: Benson & Hedges Gold Cup
1976: Hollywood Invitational Handicap.
Voted European Horse of the Year in 1973, United Kingdon Horse of the Year 1973 & 74 and US Champion Turf Horse 1974Allez France
1973: French 1000g, French Oaks & Prix Vermeille
1974: Prix d’Ispahan, Prix Ganay, Prix Foy & Arc
1975: Prix Ganay, Prix Foy & Prix Dollar
Voted 1973 French Champion Three Year Old Filly of the Year, French Horse of the Year and Older Horse of the Year for 1974Oh So Sharp
1984: Solario Stakes & Fillies Mile
1985: 1000g, Oaks & St Leger (Fillies Triple Crown)
Voted European Three Year Old Filly of the Year 1985Ouija Board
2004: Oaks, Irish Oaks & Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf
2005: Princess Royal Stakes & Hong Kong Vase
2006: Prince of Wales Stakes, Nassau Stakes & Breeders Cup Filly & Mare Turf
Voted 2004 European Champion Three Year Old Filly, European Horse of the Year (2004 & 2006), Eclipse Award for Outstanding Female Turf Horse (2004 & 2006) and European Champion Older Horse 2006Zarkava
2007: Prix Marcel Boussac
2008: French 1000g, French Oaks, Prix Vermeille & Arc
Voted 2008 European Champion 3 Year Old Filly and European Horse of the YearGoldikova
2008: Prix Rothschild, Prix du Moulin & Breeders Cup Mile
2009: Prix Rothschild, Falmouth Stakes, Prix Jacques Le Marois & Breeders Cup Mile
2010: Prix Rothschild, Prix d’Ispahan, Queen Anne Stakes. Prix de la Foret, Breeders Cup Mile
2011: Prix Rothschild & Prix d’Ispahan
Voted European Champion Older Horse (2009 & 2010), European Horse of the Year 2010 and American Champion Female Turf Horse (2009 & 2010)The interesting thing to note is that Timeform’s top rated mare is one by the name of Star of India on 138, who won five races at 5F in 1955. I haven’t been able to find anything about her online so I am not sure what she did that merited such a high rating.
Fine horses all, though if we are to split hairs neither Oh So Sharp or Zarkava raced as mares or beyond 3, so I’ve no time for them at all
Admittedly ‘racemare’ does tend to be a generic any-age term for racehorses of the distaff persuasion
This is fun, so we’ll ignore that great filly Miesque and ask you to consider the mares Triptych and Time Charter. Triptych my personal ‘favourite’ with 9 Group 1s and placed in a further 18
In the living memory of some on here Petite Etoile is, I think, the highest-rated (by Timeform) middle-distance mare on 134 and Habibti the highest-rated female overall on 136, ignoring your mention of Star Of India who I too know nothing about
Petite Etoile was rated 131 as a 5yo. Is this the highest rating given to a mare in her year of reaching marehood?
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