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Compare the preparation of both horses following the Guineas
and one is led to wonder what might have been.
Following the Guineas it would appear that Toronado had the more traditional season I mean he was not subject to the ups and downs of Dawn Approach.
After the Derby people on the RF were suggesting that he might be damaged never to recover. Training for a mile career, shifting to prepare for a mile and 1/2 then returning to prepare for a mile again is asking an awful lot from a young horse (see SNA and how it affected him).He must be a wonderful horse to cope with it. Now in contrast note the career of Toronado following the Guineas. Nurses back to his best, never a question asked until everyone was ready. Had Dawn Approach a similar preparation for his subsequent mile career would the results have been different? I believe so.Dawn Approach
wasn’t a 100% right yesterday,he ran a shade flat but so did
Toronado
in the 2000gns,both horses ran to their best in the St James Palace Stakes and a Sh hd was all that seperated them.Should both horses contest a race over a 11/4m then I’d favour ‘Toronado’,as he seems to have a stronger Stamina profile but back over a mile its always going to be down to who gets the breaks.’Toronado’ deserved his moment in the sun as he’s a bloody good horse and a genuine Group 1 performer and like Nath says will make a formidable 4yo.Anyone who suggests he’s a 2lb better horse than the Bolger horse is talking through their A*se!
If you think Dawn Approach’s St James run is better Gord, then you must believe a 3 lengths beating of Mars (Short Head + 2 3/4) is "better form" than a 2 1/2 length beating of Declaration Of War?
That’s some statement.
No big Statement at all Ginge,I’m of the opinion the St James Palace stakes was a better race,it was a battle Royal from the 2 pole and both horses were flat out fighting to the line,it went in ‘Dawn Approaches’ favour that day but it could have gone either way.The Clock tells you it was a solid gallop from start to finish and the relative distances of beaten horses confirm just how good the first two are.In contrast the Sussex stakes never developed into a battle,’Dawn approach’ committed at the furlong pole and stretched out,he maintained a good solid gallop to the line but Richard rode the perfect waiting race and pounced on him on the line,there was never a protracted battle,it was basically a Class ride from Hughesey.The clock again confirms it was a frenetic pace and the beaten horses support this.However
collateral form through both ‘Mars’ and ‘Declaration of War’ suggest there’s not a pound between these pair either and to judge both on their 11/4m running in the Eclipse tells much the same story,’
Mars’is a very difficult horse to assess as he’s run over all sorts of distances and had some bad luck in running but he’ll get a Champion Stakes somewhere.Thats a bigger statement Ginge!
Declaration Of War beat Mars
2 lengths
in the Eclipse Gord. So if you believe Mars is a "Champion Stakes" horse then DOW beat Mars 2 lengths at Mars’s
best trip
.
Yet despite this… You believe Dawn Approach’s 2 3/4 length beating of Declaration Of War in the Sussex to be inferior form to DA’s 3 lengths beating of Mars (at presumably not Mars’s best trip) in the St James’s.
If
Mars goes on to be a top class horse then you might have a case for thinking Mars the better horse than DOW and in relation DA being better than T. But
at the moment
there is no evidence Mars is top class.
Value Is EverythingCompare the preparation of both horses following the Guineas
and one is led to wonder what might have been.
Following the Guineas it would appear that Toronado had the more traditional season I mean he was not subject to the ups and downs of Dawn Approach.
After the Derby people on the RF were suggesting that he might be damaged never to recover. Training for a mile career, shifting to prepare for a mile and 1/2 then returning to prepare for a mile again is asking an awful lot from a young horse (see SNA and how it affected him).He must be a wonderful horse to cope with it. Now in contrast note the career of Toronado following the Guineas. Nurses back to his best, never a question asked until everyone was ready. Had Dawn Approach a similar preparation for his subsequent mile career would the results have been different? I believe so.I’m going to play the lottery tonight as I find myself agreeing with Andyod!!!!
I can’t help thinking that if Sheikh Mo had not become the majority owner DA would have gone nowhere near Epsom. The horse showed amazing guts to win the ST James just days after that horror show but one can’t help wondering if this is all just starting to catch up with him.
On the other hand, as you say, Toronado is only going in one direction.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Let’s not forget that Toronado had breathing issues in the 2000 that led to his lack-lustre performance. Surely a horse with this problem may be prone to it once more.
Personally, I think Toronado will beat Dawn Approach should they clash again because Hannon/Hughes know how to beat him now (think Raven’s Pass vs Henrythenavigator).
Like others have said, there isn’t a lot between these two horses. I’ll always be in preference to Toronado because he appears to have greater potential, settles better and looks like he’s improving quicker.
I still want to see Farhh (provided he’s OK) take these two on. For me, it’d be the race of the season.
Good post Hammy,Ginge would be the first to admit he’s pretty clueless about assessing horses,he confides in Timeform and then tweaks the figures to try and make us think he’s come out with a rating himself,his betting formula is pretty unique and todays result where he freely admits he didn’t have a clue what horse from his half a dozen bets in the race won!
but it works so you cant slate him for making a profit from this notoriously difficult sport,however he bets a £1 a point so he’s not one for playing with the big boys! 
You do not understand how I bet and do not know how much I bet… But that will never stop you making things up about me Gord.
In the same way that you lie about Timeform ratings. To try and make yourself look good. Value Is EverythingGood post Hammy,Ginge would be the first to admit he’s pretty clueless about assessing horses,he confides in Timeform and then tweaks the figures to try and make us think he’s come out with a rating himself,his betting formula is pretty unique and todays result where he freely admits he didn’t have a clue what horse from his half a dozen bets in the race won!
but it works so you cant slate him for making a profit from this notoriously difficult sport,however he bets a £1 a point so he’s not one for playing with the big boys! You do not understand how I bet and do not know how much I bet… But that will never stop you making things up about me Gord.
In the same way that you lie about Timeform ratings. To try and make yourself look good. It doesn’t take an Einstein to work out you bet to a maximum £1 a point as you are putting up to a 100 points in a race on umpteen horses,now if your point equated to a fiver you’d be betting £500 per race…………..Er dont think so! Thats cleared that myth up anyway! As for me telling lies about Timeform,I suggest you be very careful what you say as you could end up getting yourself and TRF in
deep trouble particularly if I did a John McCririck and wasted my time taking it to the High court fordeflamation
of character as your
deflamatory
remarks about me are
deflaming
to say the least!!
Just out of interest lets see when Jimbo mentions Timeform this week on C4 Racing!!Good post Hammy,Ginge would be the first to admit he’s pretty clueless about assessing horses,he confides in Timeform and then tweaks the figures to try and make us think he’s come out with a rating himself,his betting formula is pretty unique and todays result where he freely admits he didn’t have a clue what horse from his half a dozen bets in the race won!
but it works so you cant slate him for making a profit from this notoriously difficult sport,however he bets a £1 a point so he’s not one for playing with the big boys! You do not understand how I bet and do not know how much I bet… But that will never stop you making things up about me Gord.
In the same way that you lie about Timeform ratings. To try and make yourself look good. It doesn’t take an Einstein to work out you bet to a maximum £1 a point as you are putting up to a 100 points in a race on umpteen horses,now if your point equated to a fiver you’d be betting £500 per race…………..Er dont think so! Thats cleared that myth up anyway! As for me telling lies about Timeform,I suggest you be very careful what you say as you could end up getting yourself and TRF in
deep trouble particularly if I did a John McCririck and wasted my time taking it to the High court fordeflamation
of character as your
deflamatory
remarks about me are
deflaming
to say the least!!
Just out of interest lets see when Jimbo mentions Timeform this week on C4 Racing!!Trying to get me banned now Gord.
My stakes are nothing to do with you Gord, or anyone else.
Strange how when you were calling me a "liar, fake, cheat and charlaten" about my 100% books… And I demonstrated to you I could make a book before any bookmaker or exchange market was formed… You did not take it back/apologise, and still use those names to this day. Yet moan about being called a "liar" yourself.
TRF should be very careful with your derisory untruths Gord. Otherwise TRF and you could see court action taken by Timeform.
You tell everyone that Battle Of Merengo was rated 14 lbs clear by Timeform in the King Ed… when it was in fact just 5 lbs. Yet no apology forthcoming despite being told of your confusion.
You then claim Timeform had Cirrus Des Aigles 20 lb clear in the King George… when it was in fact almost half that at 11 lbs… Yet again no apology forthcoming despite being told of your error.
If you do not wish to be thought of as telling deliberate lies about Timeform Gord, then…
Make sure of your facts before posting.
And if you do tell
untruths
by mistake…
Make sure you xxxxxxx well apologise!
I don’t mind anyone having any opinion they wish about Timeform, as long as what they say is the
truth
.
Do you care that you tell untruths Gord?
It’s only my opinion, so "don’t take it to heart" (as you’ve said to me more than once about your opinion of me), but in my opinion anyone who does not care whether what they say is the truth… deserves to be called a "liar".Value Is EverythingTrying to get me banned now Gord.
Telling Lies isn’t a bannable offence Ginge,we’re used to you doing that!!My stakes are nothing to do with you Gord, or anyone else.
Strange how when you were calling me a "liar, fake, cheat and charlaten" about my 100% books… And I demonstrated to you I could make a book before any bookmaker or exchange market was formed…
TRF should be very careful with your derisory untruths Gord. Otherwise TRF and you could see court action taken by Timeform.
You tell everyone that Battle Of Merengo was rated 14 lbs clear by Timeform in the King Ed… when it was in fact just 5 lbs. Yet no apology forthcoming despite being told of your confusion.
You then claim Timeform had Cirrus Des Aigles 20 lb clear in the King George… when it was in fact almost half that at 11 lbs… Yet again no apology forthcoming despite being told of your error. <p style="color: # FF0000]No error from me!If you do not wish to be thought of as telling deliberate lies about Timeform Gord, then…
Make sure of your facts before posting.
[color=#FF0000;”>
And if you do telluntruths
by mistake…
Make sure you xxxxxxx well apologise!
I don’t mind anyone having any opinion they wish about Timeform, as long as what they say is thetruth
.
Do you care that you tell untruths Gord?It’s only my opinion, so "don’t take it to heart" (as you’ve said to me more than once about your opinion of me), but in my opinion anyone who does not care whether what they say is the truth… deserves to be called a "liar".
Toronado may be bigger and stronger now. He looked a beast.
I thought Dawn Approach had struggled to beat him last time, and had maybe has shot his bolt, so to speak. Maybe as an early maturer.
You tell everyone that Battle Of Merengo was rated 14 lbs clear by Timeform in the King Ed… when it was in fact just 5 lbs. Yet no apology forthcoming despite being told of your confusion.
You then claim Timeform had Cirrus Des Aigles 20 lb clear in the King George… when it was in fact almost half that at 11 lbs… Yet again no apology forthcoming despite being told of your error.Like I’ve told you again and again Gord…
Jimbo McGrath quoted
BHA OFFICIAL RATINGS
, saying "Battle Of Merengo was 14 lbs clear". YOU chose to portray that FACT as not BHA ratings, but TIMEFORM. Timeform in FACT rated Battle Of Merengo just 5 lbs clear, with others in the field described as likely to make big improvement.
It was YOUR mistake Gord. You quoted it as being a Timeform rating, criticising them for a rating not even theirs, yet fail to apologise. Then soon after, you deride them for another rating – not theirs… and still fail to apologise. You’re quite happy to leave your criticism of Timeform’s ratings on record, despite knowing those ratings are not of Timeform’s making.
You’re right Gord, you have no manners what so ever.
Value Is EverythingI suggest you be very careful what you say as you could end up getting yourself and TRF in
deep trouble particularly if I did a John McCririck and wasted my time taking it to the High court fordeflamation
of character as your
deflamatory
remarks about me are
deflaming
to say the least!!
The entertaining war of words you engage in with Ginger from time to time TAPK are
inflammatory
, certainly not
deflammatory
, and probably not
defamatory
Bobby Robson re: Millwall fans circa late ’70s –
"I’d turn the flame throwers on them"
Pundit, poss. Jimmy Hill –"I think that that would only enflame the situation" / "I think that would only inflame the situation"
Gord is only miffed because I’ve had a good few days betting Drone, can’t get his words out. He’ll get over it.
Value Is EverythingHere’s a suggestion : rather than resorting to the old fisticuffs method of resolving one’s differences; methinks dear old Ginge and the self-proclaimed ante post king, should instead race each other over a distance of say… 70 metres, as I fear the traditional 100 would be stretching both gentlemen’s stamina limitations to the max. I would willingly bet that one or both would fall over during the course of the race, and most definitely well before the finishing line.
This would put an end, once and for all ( although I doubt it
) to the warring duos tiresome tirade of insults and abuse that is hurled in each other’s direction from time to time – although for some audience members, it is slightly entertaining, that is, if you like that sort of thing. 
What odds on the outcome, Ginge – on the winner of the race, on either one, or both, staying the distance – or one or both of you rotund/unfit gentlemen "pulling up " falling on your fat backsides, collapsing, or even, a dead-heat ?
I would pay good money to see this.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I love to sit around a Camp fire in the middle of the woods with like minded folk,we’ll cook our Kill of the day over the flames,ocassionally I’ll throw a piece of Hardwood on the fire to flavour the dish.I dont profess to be a Masterchef but I do enjoy a bit of Ostrich now and again cooked over a bit of Cherrywood,after we’ve feasted on Meat and Wine,we’ll hunker down under the starlit night and tell stories of battles to be won,loves we’ve lost and conquests yet to be achieved.I remember telling the one about the day I met ‘GingerTipster’ at Newbury races and I sware to God after 5 minutes I was talkin to myself,I’d bored everyone to sleep…..Same thing happens on here you know!
Drone,Ginger has clearly shown adeflamation
of character towards me and his words are highly
inflammable
but I will rise through the flames like a Phoenix and control the higher ground!
Himself,I’d bet me and Ginge strapped together in a 3-legged race could give you a 20m head start and still beat you over 25m as you are as quick as your wit!!Himself,I’d bet me and Ginge strapped together in a 3-legged race could give you a 20m head start and still beat you over 25m as you are as quick as your wit!!
Wise old man once said : know thine enemy well before first declaring war on them.
Is 25m your optimum distance, TAPK , or as I suspect, your very limit ?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Gord is only miffed because I’ve had a good few days betting Drone
Were you on-course last week Gingertime?
Goodwood seems to be a love-it-or-loathe-it sort of place betting-wise and if I recall correctly you’re a lover
As was/is Alan Potts…talking of which, any sightings recently as it seems he’s come in from the cold and been reincarnated as a chatty Blue Boy
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