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If the roles were reversed in the Sussex and Dawn Approach had the last shot the result could have been different. Hyperthetically, if these two raced against each another 10 times the results could well be 5 wins apiece depending on luck and position in running. I think they are two evenly matched horses.
I’ve said it before both horse are as good as eachother and the best horse on the day will take the beating however Toronado with age and experience is still on the up curve and his level of performance will remain of high class as a 4 year old.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
At the moent there’s very little to choose between them. A race between the two is pretty much a case of how it falls on the day.
I suspect Nathan might be near the mark regarding Toronado. Dawn Appraoch was a precocious two-year-old, winner of the first Irish juvenile race of the year, so I’m not sure there would a huge amount more to come at this point. He did his two-year-old racing over seven furlnogs and it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s a better animal over ten furlongs.
Whatever, at the moment we have two even matched horses providing damned good racing. Enjoy the spectacle!
Rob
At the moent there’s very little to choose between them. A race between the two is pretty much a case of how it falls on the day.
I suspect Nathan might be near the mark regarding Toronado. Dawn Appraoch was a precocious two-year-old, winner of the first Irish juvenile race of the year, so I’m not sure there would a huge amount more to come at this point. He did his two-year-old racing over seven furlnogs and it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s a better animal over ten furlongs.
Whatever, at the moment we have two even matched horses providing damned good racing. Enjoy the spectacle!
Rob
Ability wise, Toronado may have improved past DA now in my opinion.
However he hasn’t achieved as much yet. When assessing a horses career, one has to look at consistency and while Toronado hasnt been particularly inconsistent, his great rival has been extraordinary especially in his 2 y old career. He is an easy horse to really like cause of the way, he puts down that head.
The one thing we also cant be sure of is how the ground might swing that rivalry. Soft ground and Intello for example will provide both with more challenges.
SHL
Timeform:
Wise Dan 134
Toronado 133
Dawn Approach 132
Farrh 132
Novellist 132Dawn Approach may be the more "consistent", but at their "best" Toronado is the "better" and as Nathan says still "improving". He settles well these days and so can show it. This was the best mile performance of 2013, possibly THE best 2013 performance FULL STOP. Had Toronado not been in the race you’d have expected Dawn Approach to beat Declaration Of War by around 2 1/2 lengths, exactly what happened. The right distances back to 4th, 5th etc too.
Therefore (imo) there is no reason why Toronado should not be rated higher than Dawn Approach. I myself would have T 2 lbs in front of DA.
Value Is EverythingDawn Approach 2
Toronado 1
Dawn Approach harder campaign come back straight away from a HARD Derby run..
i cant take it DA is at his peak his dad and mother didn’t race beyond 3yo it going to be interesting if DA stays in training now and as a 4yo i very much doubt it tho
JMO
I honestly thought that Dawn Approach was by far the better but Toronado is def on the upgrade and a stellar ride from Hughes won the day yesterday……….Dawn Approach wont shirk a battle and Toronado was ridden like he didnt want to get into a battle….two decent animals which tbh the 3yo division needs. its brightened up a dodgy ol season for me.
Nice to be sitting in the swanky boxes and not too concerned which of these bloodlines win! Back to Sadler’s Wells so soon. What a super sire he is.
Timeform:
Wise Dan 134
Toronado 133
Dawn Approach 132
Farrh 132
Novellist 132Dawn Approach may be the more "consistent", but at their "best" Toronado is the "better" and as Nathan says still "improving". He settles well these days and so can show it. This was the best mile performance of 2013, possibly THE best 2013 performance FULL STOP. Had Toronado not been in the race you’d have expected Dawn Approach to beat Declaration Of War by around 2 1/2 lengths, exactly what happened. The right distances back to 4th, 5th etc too.
Therefore (imo) there is no reason why Toronado should not be rated higher than Dawn Approach. I myself would have T 2 lbs in front of DA.but at their "best" Toronado
I always wondered that actually meant though. Pick entirely different racing conditions (within reason) and you might end up with a different result. Its the obvious flaw of the once off rating system which Im sure others have debated ad nauseam. Maybe they should hand out rating numbers based on every 3 runs. It might seem strange but there’s a certain logic in it.
SHL
Timeform:
Wise Dan 134
Toronado 133
Dawn Approach 132
Farrh 132
Novellist 132Dawn Approach may be the more "consistent", but at their "best" Toronado is the "better" and as Nathan says still "improving". He settles well these days and so can show it. This was the best mile performance of 2013, possibly THE best 2013 performance FULL STOP. Had Toronado not been in the race you’d have expected Dawn Approach to beat Declaration Of War by around 2 1/2 lengths, exactly what happened. The right distances back to 4th, 5th etc too.
Therefore (imo) there is no reason why Toronado should not be rated higher than Dawn Approach. I myself would have T 2 lbs in front of DA.
A post that sums up in a nutshell why I have no understanding of race horse ratings. (And little interest either.) How in the name of god you can have Toronado 2 lbs in front of Dawn Approach, a classic winner -in fact a classic winner who has previously beaten the former twice before- is completely beyond me Ginge.
A post that sums up in a nutshell why I have no understanding of race horse ratings. (And little interest either.) How in the name of god you can have Toronado 2 lbs in front of Dawn Approach, a classic winner -in fact a classic winner who has previously beaten the former twice before- is completely beyond me Ginge.
If you have no understanding of them and have no desire to discuss their merit, why bother posting about them?
Assessing horses has no room for prestige, heritage and perceptions tags. Whether he won a classic or not is somewhat irrelevant. It’s the performance within the race, not the tag, that is important.
The Guineas clearly shouldn’t be used as a measurement to compare DA and Toronado. Clearly, DA put up an excellent performance in the Guineas, which was a performance that indicated he was a top class horse. However, Toronado palpably failed to run anywhere near his best. His craven win and his two subsequent performances indicate he ran significantly below par.
The rivalry between Dawn Approach and Toronado is reminiscent of two other top class milers from 1981 – namely, To-Agori-Mou and King’s Lake.
There wasn’t much between the Guy Harwood and Vincent O’Brien trained colts, and there appears to be little that separates the current best milers. I suspect, just as in 1981, the race outcome will be decided on tactics and who has most luck on the day.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Felt that Toronado would win yesterday but not because he is a better horse, but thought that it was likely they would have a plan and that the horse was good enough to execute it (of course Hughes gave the horse a great ride). Wouldn’t say that Mannings ride was poor, but that race didn’t quite work out for them. It may also be Derby has caught up with DA and he just needs a small break.
Also wouldn’t be surprised if DoW gets closer next time, as many of the O’Brien horses are not running to form at present.
A post that sums up in a nutshell why I have no understanding of race horse ratings. (And little interest either.) How in the name of god you can have Toronado 2 lbs in front of Dawn Approach, a classic winner -in fact a classic winner who has previously beaten the former twice before- is completely beyond me Ginge.
If you have no understanding of them and have no desire to discuss their merit, why bother posting about them?
Assessing horses has no room for prestige, heritage and perceptions tags. Whether he won a classic or not is somewhat irrelevant. It’s the performance within the race, not the tag, that is important.
The Guineas clearly shouldn’t be used as a measurement to compare DA and Toronado. Clearly, DA put up an excellent performance in the Guineas, which was a performance that indicated he was a top class horse. However, Toronado palpably failed to run anywhere near his best. His craven win and his two subsequent performances indicate he ran significantly below par.
Trust me if I ever feel I need to ask your permission to post on a thread I’ll be sure to ask.
Trust me if I ever feel I need to ask your permission to post on a thread I’ll be sure to ask.
As usual you seem to be suffering from small goat syndrome.
You are free to post as much as you want. Alas, it likely won’t exclude the inevitably of a reply that points out clear faults.
Let me know when you are ready to commence a friendship and we can wine and dine ourselves into even more stupidity.
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