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So sad many cloud lost his life after that battle but looking back at the replays did TS play to easy did he know he was up against a classy grand national winner? who would stay all day with his eyes shut imo the ride was to i’m the best ever !!! if he would of went for him at any point before the last he would of took a’lot of catching poor ride
R.I.P Many Clouds!
It’s not always someones fault when hotpots get beaten…horse just found nil for pressure so if he went after him sooner,he would probably have been beaten further.
I can understand why he didn’t go for him before the last fence as with the way going conditions turned out and the way the race was run he didn’t want to bottom the horse out and was trying to give him an easier race as possibly, as it turned out he gave him a harder race for not doing just as you say but the jump at the last didn’t help.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
It’s not always someones fault when hotpots get beaten…horse just found nil for pressure so if he went after him sooner,he would probably have been beaten further.
He wasn’t under pressure he wasn’t even stoked up TS didn’t move on him at all… he knew he was up against a stayer further the better for many clouds as you no i think he thought for some reason he would just breeze past many clouds and sprint away obviously not
It’s not always someones fault when hotpots get beaten…horse just found nil for pressure so if he went after him sooner,he would probably have been beaten further.
He wasn’t under pressure he wasn’t even stoked up TS didn’t move on him at all… he knew he was up against a stayer further the better for many clouds as you no i think he thought for some reason he would just breeze past many clouds and sprint away obviously not
Had TS gone sooner it would probably have turned in to even more of a stamina test. ie Get to Many Clouds and he’ll go again. As it was – knowing he himself was going well, on one with plenty of speed and up against a stayer – TS played the percentages thinking Thistlecrack would outspeed Many Clouds. imo The mistakes he’s made are in previous races, not pushing out Thistlecrack – horse has got used to winning easily and didn’t know how to respond on Saturday.
Value Is EverythingThe signs were already there if you wanted to look beyond the hype but now the horse looks thoroughly exposed. There was nothing Scudamore could have done differently that would have produced a different result. Of course he wouldn’t have said as much but he would have known that the horse had stamina limitations so he had no option but to ride it that way. Worryingly, there is nothing different he can do in March. Whatever the ground that will be a much sterner examination.
The frailties are now there for all to see. The horse lacks stamina, doesn’t jump anything like what you would want in an energy conserving stayer and more importantly is nowhere near the lofty rating that he has been given. Obviously, he should have been rated on the bare form of the King George and not given a massive boost on the misconception that he had plenty left in the tank.
Stilvi, thoroughly exposed in just his 5th steeplechase, his first over fences on bad ground and his first at that trip? There’s certainly an argument that he was over rated on his KG win, but the last thing he is is thoroughly exposed as a chaser.
As to stamina, he’s run the Gold Cup trip bar 82 yards in a solid time (just a second slower than UDS from 10 out to the post) on ground that a few pros agreed was very hard work (as much because of the application of frost covers as rain). He’s caught in the last few strides by a Grand National/Hennessy winner and you think he lacks stamina?
As to energy conservation in jumping, that would have been his best performance for my money. Looking mature at almost every fence (not fluent 4 out and nodded twice at downhill). As Zarkava pointed out on the GC thread, had he missed the KG and made his open company debut on Saturday, he’d be lauded to the heavens for that run.
Okay, he didn’t win, that disappointed many, me included. But his Gold Cup claims look much more solid now than they did after Kempton. The knee-jerk post-race 11/4 is long gone and he’s 2/1 with four bookmakers and as low as 6/4. If the race doesn’t leave its mark, he’s still far and away the most likely Gold Cup winner for my money.
He hacked up on the bridle on heavy ground at Cheltenham last January,so using the going as an excuse for getting beat on Saturday wont really cut it.
I just think that the gun was jumped massively in declaring him “One of the best of all time” after beating up an average staying hurdle division,winning a few novice chases at 1/5 and a poor King George where the one horse who could actually give him a race had turned 11 and ran a stone below his best.
Let’s face it,if he was as good as many were saying,he would have beaten Many Clouds,brave and courageous as he was.
He’s a very good horse with a massive engine and a great cruising speed,but he does have his frailties and the same people just do not want to accept it.
I certainly wouldn’t rule out him winning the GC,and good luck to his supporters if he does,but 6/4???
Stilvi, thoroughly exposed in just his 5th steeplechase, his first over fences on bad ground and his first at that trip? There’s certainly an argument that he was over rated on his KG win, but the last thing he is is thoroughly exposed as a chaser.
As to stamina, he’s run the Gold Cup trip bar 82 yards in a solid time (just a second slower than UDS from 10 out to the post) on ground that a few pros agreed was very hard work (as much because of the application of frost covers as rain). He’s caught in the last few strides by a Grand National/Hennessy winner and you think he lacks stamina?
As to energy conservation in jumping, that would have been his best performance for my money. Looking mature at almost every fence (not fluent 4 out and nodded twice at downhill). As Zarkava pointed out on the GC thread, had he missed the KG and made his open company debut on Saturday, he’d be lauded to the heavens for that run.
Okay, he didn’t win, that disappointed many, me included. But his Gold Cup claims look much more solid now than they did after Kempton. The knee-jerk post-race 11/4 is long gone and he’s 2/1 with four bookmakers and as low as 6/4. If the race doesn’t leave its mark, he’s still far and away the most likely Gold Cup winner for my money.
Unfortunately, you have talked the horse up as the second coming so you are naturally going to try and defend your opinion. I am not talking in hindsight as I said at the time his King George performance had holes in it (if anyone bothered to look) and the subsequent ratings were bordering on the ridiculous.
On Saturday he was beaten by a 33/1 poke for the Gold Cup, not one the favourites. He came to the last looking like he would win but he was outstayed by a horse who for all his attributes wasn’t anything like a Gold Cup winner in waiting. Thistlecrack might have improved very slightly from the King George but we are probably talking something in the region of 162 to 163, not a figure anywhere near the 170’s. Seriously, if you think that he would have been lauded for that performance had he missed Kempton and his Gold Cup chances have actually been enhanced then you have lost the plot. He has gone from odds on to odds against and everyone will want a piece of the action.
I really think there is a better chance of Thistlecrack being unplaced in a Gold Cup than actually winning it. Sadly, he is just a much better hurdler than chaser. It will be interesting to see what they do with him after the Gold Cup but he will be very fortunate to stumble over such a weak King George ever again.
Stilvi, you think that was a 163 performance and you say I’ve lost the plot?
Yes, I thought the horse was the second coming and I’m not defending that nor ignoring Saturday’s evidence. I said I was disappointed.
What is unknown from Saturday and, sadly, will remain so is what level Many Clouds had reached. He lined up rated 15lbs higher than when he won the Hennessy and 6lbs higher than when he won the National. His final OR will be above 170. Sherwood promised he would improve after his seasonal debut Aintree win, which he obviously did, but nobody can say by how much.
My assessment of Thistlecrack was not from blind loyalty. You talk of others ‘bothering to look’ at your previous posts on him. Have a look at mine. I said he still had stamina questions to answer. He answered them on Saturday, more than satisfactorily. You’re assuming his stamina failed in the final strides when it could just as easily have been inexperience, especially under pressure, that cost him the race.
Saturday could still have been a mighty performance. We will only find out how good Many Clouds was in his last race when the result of the Gold Cup comes in.
I think some people are underestimating the performance of Many Clouds and therefore the performance of Thistlecrack. Both horses were a full 17 lengths in front of 3rd place. Many Clouds, I would say was a one off, with his attitude and no other horse would have been headed by Thistlecrack and got back up to win Saturday. Unfortunately the outcome was tragic. It was once too often for Many Clouds.
Mike (The Blues Brother) has both Many Clouds and Thistlecrack top of his NH speed figures.
Many Clouds was rated 167 after his National performance and I believe he is one of the few horses to top a winning National performance. Ran 170+ IMO. This puts Thistlecrack on the same mark ‘p’ and therefore a worthy fav for the GC.
Interesting thread this, quite strong views for and against. For what it’s worth I think
Thistlecrack lost nothing in defeat, he was marginally outstayed by one of the best stayers
in recent times who perhaps ran the race of his life. Personally I’m not sure why the question
of stamina has been mooted, he was beaten a nostril, whilst still running on well on really
testing ground, by the a horse with stamina to burn. I don’t think the Gold Cup distance, which
in all likelihood will probably be run on better ground, will be an issue, and I think he will
have learned more from this than any race he has run in so far. I still think he’s the best
horse in the Gold Cup by some way, and I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t winThistecrack is still learning his trade. Whatever Tom does will upset some people. My main concern is that, because of Coneygree we’ve all forgotten that novices don’t win Gold Cups.
I reckon (and I reckon Colin Tizzard reckons) Cue Card was given a poor ride at Kempton and had he held off making a challenge until much later he’d have given Thistlecrack a race.
No disgrace to be beaten by Many Clouds who was top notch on his day. Plus they were hardly going to bottom Thistlecrack on Saturday. He’ll be pounds better and ridden harder come Gold Cup day. Whether it’ll be enough to see off a galloper as resolute as Native River or an up and coming stayed like Outlander we will find out. I think he’ll be tough to beat but not keen on the price.Stilvi, you think that was a 163 performance and you say I’ve lost the plot?
The only way you could give that race a big rating would be if you actually believe the King George rating and you also believe that Smad Place has run his race and is a solid yardstick. I don’t believe either. Smad Place is on the decline and perhaps more importantly I suspect he needs to have his own way in front. I doubt he is going to win another race unless dropped into the veterans series. Many Clouds ran to about 160 at Aintree so I have the front two improving very slightly on their previous runs.
When I used the phrase ‘thoroughly exposed’ I was predominantly referring to Thistlecrack’s limitations in respect of stamina and jumping. That said I would be very surprised if he ever progressed beyond 165 which would leave him well short of Gold Cup winning standard.
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