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I would offer 5/4 Barry couldn’t run hundred yards in 2 minutes 31 seconds
If there’s no change in rail positions, times can show up a good horse.
Times obviously have to be compared to the going but…
A poor time does not mean the horse is not good, could be just a matter of pace; a good time means a good horse.Value Is EverythingYeah…….I tend to think along the lines of ‘all horses can run slow, only the good ones can run fast’
horses A & B run and win different divisions 7F maiden race same day half hour apart.
horse A runs 2 seconds faster
2 weeks later both meet same track same going same weights same jockeys same distance.
in a match do you want to bet big odds on horse A.
if it happens look me up, times mean diddly squat
workforce track record epsom easiest derby winner in years, super star.
harbinger track record ascot easiest KG winner in years super star???
thats why there’s bookmakers
horses A & B run and win different divisions 7F maiden race same day half hour apart.
horse A runs 2 seconds faster
2 weeks later both meet same track same going same weights same jockeys same distance.
in a match do you want to bet big odds on horse A.
if it happens look me up, times mean diddly squat
workforce track record epsom easiest derby winner in years, super star.
harbinger track record ascot easiest KG winner in years super star???
thats why there’s bookmakers
indeed, id say its who beats who everyday of the week.
horses A & B run and
win
different divisions 7F maiden race same day half hour apart.
horse A runs 2 seconds faster
2 weeks later both meet same track same going same weights same jockeys same distance.
in a match do you want to bet big odds on horse A.
if it happens look me up,
times mean diddly squat
If you truly believed race times mean diddly squat then why bother adding in the demand that both A & B win, why not only make your second demand that A runs 2s faster.
In the example given let’s say that horse A wins in a time of 90 seconds and horse B wins in a time of 92 seconds
As i said above ‘all horses can run slow’ so Horse A can run slower than 90 seconds, he could match horse B’s time of 92 seconds
We don’t know wether horse B can run it faster than 92 seconds, we don’t know if he could match A’s time of 90 seconds.
So, in that example i’d say Horse A has the advantage
if you’re just going by race times !
- Total Posts 17716
Seems Harbinger broke the track record which seems to be the in thing these days………like in the Derby the pacemaker took a fair bit of passing lus both winners went very early which is probably why both track records went.
You put a good pacemaker in a handicap and get an uninterupted run round any good can break track records.
Time can give you a guide but using it as gospel is the quickest way you could possibly find to the poor house.
Slow pace fast pace back peddling leaders getting in the way………..winner being held up by a very confident rider…….there are dozens of reasons why times can be very misleading.
- Total Posts 17716
Slow pace fast pace back peddling leaders getting in the way………..winner being held up by a very confident rider…….there are dozens of reasons why times can be very misleading.
True. And the recent BBC directive forcing their commentators to talk about
"average"
instead of
"standard"
times – presumably in an attempt to make the idea comprehensible to the general public – adds to the misleading confusion.
Hard for them, because they know that
"standard"
times are certainly
not
"average"
times, but they’re under orders and have to toe the line. Confusing for everyone, really.
I never look at times-I don’t know how many times the Supreme Novices has been run in a faster time then the Champion.As the man said means diddly squat.
As Luca once said , the only people who worry about time are the people who are serving it (or something close to that)
Barry and Fist are spot on
Ricky
horses A & B run and win different divisions 7F maiden race same day half hour apart.
horse A runs 2 seconds faster
2 weeks later both meet same track same going same weights same jockeys same distance.
in a match do you want to bet big odds on horse A.
if it happens look me up, times mean diddly squat
workforce track record epsom easiest derby winner in years, super star.
harbinger track record ascot easiest KG winner in years super star???
thats why there’s bookmakers
Of course in your example it depends on a few things.
If the first half of both races are run in exactly the same time; then the chances are horse A is better than Horse B. But then if they meet next time out, horse A is likely to be shorter than B. It would depend how much the difference in price is, who I’d back.
If horse B’s race is run at a slow pace early, where as horse A’s was truly run; then comparison of times is almost meaningless.
However,
Looking at Harbinger’s time (compared to standard times) on Saturday, it was so much better than any other race time during the day. Even when taking in to account it was the only Group 1. Therefore itdoes
mean a great deal.
Are you going to Goodwood tomorrow Barry?
I’ve already backed Harbinger for the Arc but….
If you don’t think Harbinger is the real deal, put your money where your mouth is and lay me£100 @ 3/1 for the Arc
.
Make it 7/2 and I’ll have more.
Value Is EverythingOne thing I look for is any two year old that produces a Timeform Computer Timefigure of over 100 on it’s debut. Then it’s likely to go on to be at least pattern class. If it does it easily, possibly Group 1.
Value Is EverythingLet’s not use any examples of Horse A recording this time and Horse B recording that time.
In horse racing, it’s plain and simple, times mean absolutley nothing – they always have done and they always will do.
If anyone can categorically prove otherwise then go for it.
I’ve used examples before about horses being exactly like humans and I will do so again. So today’s quesiton is, how many 1500m Olympic and World Champion Gold Medal winners were the fastest men/women on the planet at the time of the race?
I’ll save you all looking. The answer is very few. The reason being that fast times (in both horseracing and athletics) are recorded because of pace. Gold medal winners – or in horseracing terms, champions – are made through tactics, acceleration, and ability. They are not made out of being the fastest human/horse on the planet.
The only time you can use times is when someone/thing is going at the highest speed possible from start to finish – 100m Sprint in athletics or dog racing for example. Even in 5F sprints, horses don’t run from start to finish at full speed.
So in summary it’s quite simple. Times mean nothing in horseracing. If someone can give me a form line where – in your opinion – a horse has beaten another horse purely using time analysis, then I’ll give you a million examples of where a horse with a slower ‘lifetime best’ time has beaten a faster one.
I’ll save you all looking. The answer is very few. The reason being that fast times (in both horseracing and athletics) are recorded because of pace. Gold medal winners – or in horseracing terms, champions – are made through tactics, acceleration, and ability. They are not made out of being the fastest human/horse on the planet.
Give me a little insight into Bekele’s achievements then. He is faster at 10000m and no one has beat him yet.
I’ll save you all looking. The answer is very few. The reason being that fast times (in both horseracing and athletics) are recorded because of pace. Gold medal winners – or in horseracing terms, champions – are made through tactics, acceleration, and ability. They are not made out of being the fastest human/horse on the planet.
Give me a little insight into Bekele’s achievements then. He is faster at 10000m and no one has beat him yet.
I said ‘very few’ not ‘all’.
Bekele is an amazing athlete who is both the fastest man in the world at 5,000m and 10,000m and someone who has the ability to win tactical races also. However he has been beat so your statement that ‘no one has beat him yet’ is not correct.
He is one of a few exceptions in athletics where he is the fastest man in the world (at the distance) going into an Olympic or Wolrd final who actually wins the race.
This is not always the case – take Kelly Holmes for example. Her 800m and 1500m Gold medals were won by excellent use of tacticts, ability and determination. They weren’t achieved because she was the fastest women in the world at the time, far from it in fact, her personal best was a few seconds slower than some of her rivals in both those races.
I have no problem with horse races being timed and people using times as a betting tool, it’s completely up to them, I respect people’s opinions and would never try and change them. All I am saying is a race with a furious pace will obviously aid horses in that race to record fast times. It doesn’t mean the horses from that race will beat other horses that have recorded a slower time over exactly the same conditions.
"OneEye wrote:
I said ‘very few’ not ‘all’.Bekele is an amazing athlete who is both the fastest man in the world at 5,000m and 10,000m and someone who has the ability to win tactical races also. However he has been beat so your statement that ‘no one has beat him yet’ is not correct.
It is at 10,000m at the highest level which is all I mentioned.
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