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Well said, DB.
Just to add my tentative tuppence’ worth, I’d have thought the best method to a) centre the racing programme around times people can attend/tune in and b) avoid clashing with the traditionally football-oriented Saturday 3PM slot is looking straight at us, albeit from across two small bodies of water. Why couldn’t the BHA at least toy with a model more akin to the French/Irish (or general European) system where the main raceday becomes a Sunday?
I take most of your points, Db. Except for these two:
The Melbourne Cup is also arguably the premier horse-race in the entire Southern Hemisphere so to compare it to a midweek meeting at Doncaster with a Listed race worth maybe £25K to the winner is a nonsense.
I didn’t. The Melbourne Cup is the classic example of a midweek, let’s all forget work and go racing experience. Much as I’m an enthusiast for all things horse racing, the Brocklesby and the Beeswing are a different kind of vibe.
However, I will and fight to the death about my belief that we should have promoted the same experience with the Derby, a bigger race than any other worldwide – a root race for horse racing cultures from America to Zanzibar.
The Melbourne Cup is no more about horse-racing to Australia than the next piss-up!
You could argue this about anything. The FA Cup Final. Punchestown. The Run for the Roses (a magnificent booze up): the Lords Test. Henley. The 20/20 finals. Any Six Nations. It’s in our nature to accompany sporting events with ale. It’s a Viking thing.
I’ve never been to a football and cricket match of such relative magnitude and not been hammered. We can’t turn away from that. The Melbourne Cup is a holistic lifestyle opportunity.
Most working people in the UK would be grateful for an excuse for a national holiday and if just ten percent of them even look at the Derby card as a result, we’ve won.
Saturday, there is far too much on.
I know you’re passionate about the horses and I’m sure you would have had mixed feelings about watching the Derby being slithered between two slices of crappy football like so much leftover corned beef the morning after a party.
And the same with this Saturday. There’s far too much going on and not enough time to think and contemplate. The Lincoln’s just another race, the Brocklesby just another B Movie, the Spring Mile ditto – it’s all too packed!
A punter may as well just get hammered and when this is the logical conclusion, you may as well run eight novice hurdles with seven Nicholls odds-on buzzers and a Henderson improver. And that
will
be the death of racing.
On a personal note, I notice you mention jump racing. One of the minor reasons I prefer the Derby to the National is because it happens outside the football season and was once on a Wednesday where there is nothing else to do. I’ve missed more Nationals than I’ve seen because of watching live football, so it seems we have opposite self-interests.
For me, all big races should be run at the weekend. If you decide to attend a footy match or do any other leaisure pursuit then that is entirely upto the individual. As much as older generations dont seem to like it, racing must re-organise its yearly schedules from time to time to try and increase attendance, awareness, and compete with other sports. Hence the Derby being on a Saturday where more people have the chance to see it/attend it.
I dont mind what day the "flat season begins" as its a year round thing now. However, one thing the flat could do, is ensure as many big races are held on saturdays (or Sundays) outwith the flagship summer festivals (York, Chester in may, Royal Ascot, Newmarket July meeting, Glorious Goodwood and York Ebor meeting). Aside from those happy for all other big races (and I dont mean listed and group 3 races, I mean Group One and Big Handicaps) to be run on the weekend.
But, at the end of the day, if the National or Derby or Cheltenham Gold Cup were run on Mondays I’d still see them one way or another (Sky + is great lol!)
I must admit I am with David Brady on this one, having worked somewhere where even having any interest in horse racing is strongly frowned upon, I have to say that I hated with a passion having to miss big week race meetings, and trying to sneak around in work trying to catch racing results on teletext or work (heavily site censored) internet, and phoning in bets at lunch times etc with no idea of whats going on in the markets.
I personally like having the Derby on a saturday, but would rather the Oaks and Coronation Cup were on the same day, with all the lower class action on the sunday.
At the same time I hate that almost all my favorite races at ascot are on the tuesday. I also hate that the Dante is run on a Thursday with the comparitively poor Lingfield Trial on a saturday, in fact, bar the Derrinstown Trial and the Guineas (if the guineas can be classed as a derby trial) most other half decent decent derby trials are run mid week.
It is also worth remembering regarding the Derby/Melbourne Cup comparison, that most people in the UK think the biggest race of the year is the Grand National, and the derby doesnt even register with them as being of any significance (and I dont include myslef in that group).
David , much appreciate your post and agree with a lot of your points , however lets remove ourselves from this for a moment as we are committed known culprits for horse racing ethiusiasm ,
lets think about a newcomer to racing who pops into a betting shop on the saturday to watch a big race , only to find its on a split screen with the 3.32 at monmore or one of those new car racing cartoons , what will he think of our sport ??
Worse still its on a small split screen because 2 other races went off late
can we just think outside of the box for a while , we need new people to get involved , cramming all our fixtures into the weekend just is not the answer ,
cheers
Ricky
Admittedly I do get annoyed on guineas day as usualy theres some not worth tripe race at plumpton (I think) that tends to be off at the same time as the actual 2000 guineas itself, and usually in the Bookies you have to watch the guineas on one of the small side screens with Ch4 coverage. Wel at least that was in the days of SIS not sure how they would work with Turf TV (as they cover nemarket, and dont think they cover plumpton).
I think racing can afford two decent meetings to take place on the same day, with the better races spread out chronologically, however with really big races there needs to be time to enjoy the build up to the race.
What I would say though is that there are a lot of saturdays where there is virtually nothing happening. They could always go against tradition and move certain meeting dates, create new races, or at least re-evaluate the big handicap calender. Have always thought august on the flat and mid july is dull as dishwater for saturday meetings.
I thought the Midweekers would have more support. Ricky, particularly on the Derby issue. Here’s me banging on for two years and I’m possibly in a minority. This place (and this sport), never fails to surprise.
Champions Day at Newmarket (a course I really enjoy visiting), was a flop for me when I went. (Teofilio, Detroit City and Pride were the main winners that year in 2006).
I don’t know how you lot bet, but the maidens and claimers and sellers and some handicaps in a meeting allow me to concentrate on the big race, or the big two races.
Studying the Ces is a day in itself. The Dewhurst field is heading toward Stewards Cup levels year on year. It needs a good study. The Champion Stakes (suffering, sadly), brings together the generations in a climactic clash AND allows the milers/suspect stayers to race against the stamina laden/speed deficient horses. Each one of the horses in the 2006 Champion won by Pride deserved a good look, a perusal. You get that time if you stick in a claimer, a seller, or one of those Wood Ditton style maidens beforehand. You get the necessary breather.
Each of these Champions Day races is like a glass of good wine. Each sip need savouring; the experience needs discussion, contemplation, reaction. Aggregating these great races together (including the Rockfel, and the Challenge) in one day is just overstimulation. You can’t get context, you don’t know what’s good and bad and before you’ve formed an impression of what you’ve seen, then the next lot of top colts are circling in the parade ring.
It’s the kind of unnecessary Buy One Get One Free overkill that some supermarkets are thinking about ending. Sometimes less is more.
I used to look forward to the flat starting on a thursday for a 3 day Doncaster meeting beginning with the Brocklesby, well apart from trying to find the winner of a 2yo maiden with no form to go on, now it seems there are too many AW meetings and I wonder if they are taking priority from the old format and if thats the case I cant fathom why.
Champions Day at Newmarket (a course I really enjoy visiting), was a flop for me when I went. (Teofilio, Detroit City and Pride were the main winners that year in 2006).
I don’t know how you lot bet, but the maidens and claimers and sellers and some handicaps in a meeting allow me to concentrate on the big race, or the big two races.
Studying the Ces is a day in itself. The Dewhurst field is heading toward Stewards Cup levels year on year. It needs a good study. The Champion Stakes (suffering, sadly), brings together the generations in a climactic clash AND allows the milers/suspect stayers to race against the stamina laden/speed deficient horses. Each one of the horses in the 2006 Champion won by Pride deserved a good look, a perusal. You get that time if you stick in a claimer, a seller, or one of those Wood Ditton style maidens beforehand. You get the necessary breather.
I would disagree Max, that a lot of time is needed to study such big races on the flat. Big Races are mostly about class more than anything. And I would argue that if all big races were held on a saturday or a sunday then it would be much easier to have the classy horses spotted before they all come together on the same day.
Interesting enough in the case that you use of the Champion Stakes, most of the horses in that race had big weekend performances and it was pretty easy to see Pride had a cracking chance after the way she had just finished in not so testing arc a few weeks beforehand on a sunday. I personally was blinded however by my confidence in Sir Percy (not realising that he had become a bum in his time off the track) who had also run in a big saturday race on his last start. For me these sorts of races need very little study time as you should generally have a good idea of every horses strengths and weaknesses well in advance of the time of the race, and it is much easier if they have previously ran on weekends IMO.
Likewise with Teofilo, that race had the same forecast as the National Stakes at the curragh on a sunday from the previous month, there wasnt a great deal of form reading necessary to work it out.
Obviously the Cesarewitch would have needed much more form study, however the winner that year Detroit City by my recollection had nothing on Previous Form to suggest he was going to win (there was a tip going about for him at the time which I went against on that basis).
IMO big field handicaps generally need study time, but big stakes races, and particularly end of the season big stakes races, need very little study time, because IMO you should have a horse figured for it long before the day of the race, and its very seldom a big stakes race is won by a shock late entry with such minimal indications that they need such inense form study that late in the day.
Thats just my outlook on it anyway Max.
Think there’s a couple of arguments going on here – there is certainly too much racing in the UK and the sheer amount of it detracts from the flagship events.
But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t put as many of those flagship events at weekends as possible.
Maybe arrange Saturday big-race times slightly differently so the day’s main event goes off at 3.50 to fit into the half-time break at football. That would help with the TV and radio coverage. That’s not belittling racing, it’s coping with the situation we find ourselves in.
Why not run the midweek meetings later in the day so, for example, the Ebor goes off at 7pm as the last race on the card with the first race at 4.00. Run the other main races at 5.30, 6.00 and 6.30 so people at least have a chance to watch after work.
Just a thought.All those jump snobs will tell us that the turf flat until the Craven meeting has no value at all but I am always excited at the turf commencement, folkestone on a sodden tuesday in early april still has more appeal than say the Scottish Grand National meeting.
Jeff Stelling is Mr soccer saturday, how he makes entertainment out of poor "experts" amazes me. For me on a saturday if me accers still running i’l watch the races, if not it’s Jeff suffering another beating from his beloved Hartlepool. The battery powered James Brown is far more entertaining than Thommo and gang. Have to agree with most of the rest though Max, good post.
Cheers UN. Enjoying the discussion.
Bullers, I watched SP go down to the post that day and knew immediately that he’d gone, just like his mother did. He looked like he had flu. Conversely, I’ve never seen a horse go down in any race as well as Pride did. A fine mare. Unfortunately, I’d lumped on SP at 4/1 – before I watched him go down and felt it was disloyal to cover. Don’t they say you should never get emotional about horses? No wonder I had to go back to work.
Mulls, some good ideas there – quite radical actually. One thing – would you be happy to have The Derby again in the half time break of a football match?
A lot of good points and suggestions made here. Whether individuals agree with the points or not, what do people think the chances are of things changing in the future? A wednesday Derby with a 6pm start? Would be radical but I’d be happy with that.
With regards to fixture congestion, what happened to those "matinee" meetings that used to start at 11am or so on a saturday…a few more of those in spring/autumn time in city locations could attract some football fans who can go racing then onto the footy at 3pm. Maybe they were binned as they didn’t work, anyone know???
I went to one Doug, – thoroughly enjoyed it. Weren’t many there, though.
The twilight meetings are running at Southwell shortly – beginning at 5.40 and finishing at 8.10. People can go to work and go straight to racing after without having to go home to change. We might be on to something…
If the twilight or matinee meetings were good cards that might give them a chance of being successful. (for example on saturday you have kempton with decent quality that could provide a matinee meeting in stead of competing with Nad Al Sheba and Donny).
I am glad the evening meetings are almost upon us, quite like it when there are two afternoon meetings and two evening meetings. Nice spread through the day.
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