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I know I won’t get the "lastword". But this talk about Canford Cliffs running below form matters not one jot. Timeform have Canford Cliffs running a few pounds below his best. Yet still rate Frankel’s performance 142.
Value Is EverythingLastword, for your posts to gain any respect you must, to coin a phrase "keep it real".
In an earlier post you put down a truly outstanding colt "Sea The Stars". I know this may be contentious but, I personally don’t think Sea The Stars was "THAT" great, and certainly not in the Sea Bird, Ribot, Bridadier Gerard, Dancing Brave bracket, nor I’m afraid in the Nijinsky, Mill Reef or Shergar league. I do however put him around the Grundy, Troy, Peintre Celebre level.
Nevertheless, Sea The Stars was exceptional. In an earlier post you said that Secretariat would have beaten Sea The Stars 30 lengths in his Arc. This statement is utterly ridiculous. " Just Keeping It Real" you must understand. In fact making comment’s like that open you to deserved ridicule.
Now, if you had said Secretariat had the ability to win most Arc’s of the last 30 years, and given decent ground and an appropriate preparation. I, for one would agree.
Please give credit where credit’s due, Frankel has beaten "very easily" a colt that had won 5 consecutive G1 races, that in turn had beaten fair and square Goldikova, a winner of umpteen G1 races including 3 Breeders Cup events. Please believe, Frankel is not just another top class horse, he may well be the greatest we have ever seen in Europe.
Just requesting you "Keep It Real".
Frankel is a great horse,over a mile. However go beyond a mile,if Sir Henry will allow, and nobody knows what will happen. Maybe one horse like Nathaniel or So You think would put him in his place. But he seems to be the best miler in GB right now.
Can anyone imagine what would be the response in the Forum if Frankel was French,had won every race in France, had beaten every challenge, but had never raced beyond a mile for whatever reason and the French had started to carry on about their "wonderhorse".Can you imagine the Forum if they refused to run in the Arc and kept him away from mile and two or mile and four races? And if they refused to challenge in races outside France? We would jump all over the trainer and the French press. And we would be right.
Pinza,please remind me when it happens.I know he will stay two furlongs more.But the record must be made straight. As for me and Galileo,isn’t it time for you to jump on the Galileo wagon after the King George? From a mile to what? I don’t know the limits of Galileo here or in South Africa yet.I believe he will do much better next year.
Can anyone imagine what would be the response in the Forum if Frankel was French,had won every race in France, had beaten every challenge, but had never raced beyond a mile for whatever reason and the French had started to carry on about their "wonderhorse".Can you imagine the Forum if they refused to run in the Arc and kept him away from mile and two or mile and four races? And if they refused to challenge in races outside France? We would jump all over the trainer and the French press. And we would be right.
I don’t think thats right. Look at Zarkava. Ok she won at different distances but never ran outside France and only raced against colts once yet she is univerally seen as a great filly. Better IMO than Goldikova or for that matter Midday who have both won in different countries. Sometimes its just about pure class. Even IF Frankel didn’t truely stay ten furlongs Sir Henry could find a "weak one" somewhere which Frankel could win running a stone below his best but how does that enhance his sheer class?
Can anyone imagine what would be the response in the Forum if Frankel was French,had won every race in France, had beaten every challenge, but had never raced beyond a mile for whatever reason and the French had started to carry on about their "wonderhorse".Can you imagine the Forum if they refused to run in the Arc and kept him away from mile and two or mile and four races? And if they refused to challenge in races outside France? We would jump all over the trainer and the French press. And we would be right.
As horses mature they usually stay better.
Frankel is learning to settle. He may well run at 10f when educated. Probably stays in training. There is no reason to denegrate the horse, Frankel is an amazing miler. A "Wonderhorse".
You beat me to it…
Zarkava stayed in France, was she rated by the British any less? NO.It may be unfair on the Irish to have so few Group 1 races (something that surely should be changed). But because of that, fact is the Irish horses need to race in other countries. There are plenty of races in Britain for Frankel. Who knows, next year Frankel might end his career in the Breeders Cup.
Frankel should not be marked down for not being Irish.
Value Is EverythingSea The Stars settled very well at a mile, so therefore had excellent prospects of staying 10 or 12 furlongs. Frankel does not settle well enough YET.
A horse’s temperament has just as much to do with how far a horse stays as its breeding.
Value Is EverythingFrankel is a great horse,over a mile. However go beyond a mile,if Sir Henry will allow, and nobody knows what will happen. Maybe one horse like Nathaniel or So You think would put him in his place. But he seems to be the best miler in GB right now.
OMG
How many more posts about the exact same thing?
Three threads with the same point.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
I know I won’t get the "lastword". But this talk about Canford Cliffs running below form matters not one jot. Timeform have Canford Cliffs running a few pounds below his best. Yet still rate Frankel’s performance 142.
Which puts Rio De La Plata on 127, showing marked improvement, on his 12th race at the distance, and his 23rd race in all?
I know I won’t get the "lastword". But this talk about Canford Cliffs running below form matters not one jot. Timeform have Canford Cliffs running a few pounds below his best. Yet still rate Frankel’s performance 142.
Which puts Rio De La Plata on 127, showing marked improvement, on his 12th race at the distance, and his 23rd race in all?
To be fair I’ve never understood Timeform’s ratings they always do things like this i.e. raise a horse to inflate another.
Rio De La Plata ran upto his best IMO (which I have 118 different to Timeforms scale I know) but I don’t think there is any evidence to suggest Rio De La Plata ran BETTER than he ever has.
I have Frankel 133. My ratings generally are usually lower than everyone elses as I try to rate horses down rather than up.
- Total Posts 17716
Which puts Rio De La Plata on 127, showing marked improvement, on his 12th race at the distance, and his 23rd race in all?
What’s your reasoning for this 127 figure? Allowing a realistic 7lb allowance for the ease of
Frankel
‘s win,
Rio de la Plata
ran to about 120 on Wednesday, which is his current BHA mark. There’s no suggestion whatsoever that Rio de la Plata failed to run his race, and he’s in good form. So 142 for Frankel is perfectly defensible. Handicappers don’t have to go on bare distances, as you very well know,
Reet
!
Sir Henry Cecil has said he is now aimed at the QE2 and then trains on as a 4 year old. Next year, he will come into his own.
I know I won’t get the "lastword". But this talk about Canford Cliffs running below form matters not one jot. Timeform have Canford Cliffs running a few pounds below his best. Yet still rate Frankel’s performance 142.
Which puts Rio De La Plata on 127, showing marked improvement, on his 12th race at the distance, and his 23rd race in all?
No
it does not put Rio De La Plata on
127
.
No
it does not have him
"showing marked improvement"
.
Timeform Racehorses rating for Rio De La Plata is
121
.
His Timeform rating for this year’s Queen Anne is (I believe)121
.
His Timeform rating for the Sussex is (I believe)122
.
They’ve rated Frankel’s actual
passing the line
rating
139
and not unjustly
added 3lbs for ease of victory
(over Rio De La Plata).
The arbitrary 2 lbs per length is nonsense.
Value Is EverythingI have Frankel 133. My ratings generally are usually lower than everyone elses as I try to rate horses down rather than up.
Respect for doing your own ratings Ian, but why try to rate a horse "down" or "up"? Why not just give a horse the rating you believe the performance justifies?
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
So enough of this best miler business.
I heartily agree, sir. Enough is enough. The votes are in, and you lost.
Frankel
has it on this Forum.
Accept that with a good grace, cease repetitive and tedious posts (20 and counting in two days) about these bespattered yankee crocks slugging it out on sloppy dirt.
Move on, as Shug McGaughey might have put it, to fresh fields and pastures new. Or maybe that was Milton. Now what’s the fashionable American phrase?…
closure
. Please.
Thank you for counting my posts. That means you are reading at least and paying attention. Are we on a post limit here? Does the conversation stop when Mr. Pinhead says so? I’ve been on threads that lasted for months and months. Should I ignore responses such as yours? Whats gained by that.
I’m glad you make the point "on this Forum" for Frankel’s dominance. That is fine too but I don’t have to accept it gracefully. Why should I accept anything I don’t agree with?One thing you have shown me is that you lack great ability in the overall measurement of horseflesh and also have a distorted view of history as well. If you are sitting there and telling me Frankel would beat Dr. Fager under ANY circumstances then i’d be calling the loony bin on you. What I accept with grace is your right to claim your own best, not the worlds and I will not be silenced either by the local hall monitor just because he disagrees and wants finality on the subject
Can we please ban the troll? Even TAPK and Fist provided logical discussion and evidence to back up their points half of the time, this one provides none of these things.
If Frankel fails at 10f (which I doubt he will), he is still one of the highest quality milers ever (if he is as good as he looks). The qualifications some come up with for a "great" horse are silly in my opinion.
Black Caviar has been beating top class sprinters in a similar manner to the way Frankel beat Canford Cliffs, so a match between the two would be incredible.
Most people rate Hay List at roughly the same level as Rocket Man (Star Witness a few lengths behind), and Black Caviar comfortably beats Hay List by 2+ lengths every time they meet. She’s a freak as well.
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