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I think lowering the voting age to 16 is a good thing. They can go out and work so why not vote?
Some of them really have their heads screwed on. We’ve just had a couple of apprentices start at my workplace (17 and 19) and I have to say their enthusiasm and work ethic are fantastic. I don’t know what their knowledge of politics is like but they’d certainly be capable of understanding it. As MBV says there are clueless people of all ages so denying 16 and 17 year olds a say based on the fact that some of them don’t understand is unfair in my book.
I believe that Wales also allowed them to vote last week.
It’s hard enough getting 21 year olds interested in politics, let alone 16 year olds.
Apprentices are in that work because they’re interested in the job, Richard. Or those uninterested aren’t the ones doing well. Working is relatively easy to understand, apprentices are shown exactly what to do by experienced hands. Apprentices then learn more from their own experience. With politics people should hear all sides before putting their X in the box; not just a link from a friend. Yes, there are clueless people from all ages, but it’s the percentage of clueless people that’s the key. 16 year olds are generally far more idealistic, easier to manipulate and importantly less likely to understand what’s practicable. That’s not a criticism, just how it is – having less experience.
Value Is EverythingNot just 16 year olds, I would say most under 25’s – that’s why universities are generally full of ideological leftie students, especially at the so called red brick establishments and the old polytechnics.
Once they finish university and join the real world most of them realise the folly of their idealism and become more centrist in their outlook – unfortunately some never mature and remain in the Labour Party as champagne socialists.
Have you got a degree in stereotyping? or do you let me guess come from the school of hard knocks??
If we’re doing lazy stereotypes then where exactly does the Tories’ real world experience come from? Probably not massive country estates, Eton or Oxbridge.
Oh come on, don’t be so woke. It’s not about “stereotypes” MBV / Richard, it’s about percentages. The small percentage of 16 year olds who understand both politics AND (equally) what’s practicable. Therefore imo 16 year olds should not have the vote… And everyone (yes even you two) believe these percentages are important, otherwise there’d be an outcry that 10 year olds don’t get the vote just because one or two may be able to understand. So please don’t play the “stereotype” card.
imo Evidence suggests the age of voting should be 18 because that is the age people should be able to understand politics and have some idea of what’s practicable. Some might think it should be older, you might think it should be younger. You might think I and other Conservatives don’t want 16 year olds to vote because they generally vote for left wing parties. But imo left wing parties and left leaning people want the age of voting to be 16 because 16 year olds generally vote for them / their way. Evidence just isn’t there to support votes for 16 year olds.
Value Is EverythingI can’t make up my mind if you’re just at the wind-up Paul or if your views really
are slightly to the right of Genghis Khan. You’ve just written off millions of 16
to 25s as idealogical lefties who aren’t part of the real world just because they
don’t share your ideology or your view of the “real world”. I can’t speak for the
whole of the UK, but I would say that in Scotland those from school leaving age
and the under 25s as you class them, take more of an interest in politics than
probably the same demographic from my time (70s). It could be that politicians
aren’t just predominantly aging white men in grey suits which in the main was
the case back then.From deciding that Sturgeon is “an irrelevant leader of a local council which is
of no concern or relevance to 95% of the UK” to deciding that the Scots voting to
remain in the EU is “no more relevant than how Yorkshire, Wessex or any other random
area voted”, not to mention that Scotland wanting to rejoin the EU is inderstanable
“because as a failed state it would qualify for massive EU financial bailouts”, is
there any other people, body or Nation that you would like to insult ?What is clear to me from many comments on this topic, is that there isn’t an
understanding of the feeling within Scotland from outwith, it is a lot bigger
than the polls, 16 suggesting for independance is ahead and 18 suggesting against
ahead since the start of the year, suggest. Your views are paraffin on the flames
of independance.If as has been suggested, that there really isn’t the appetite fo Independance in
Scotland, then let them get on with it and if that’s the case when they fail to get
a majority then we can get on with getting on. I wouldn’t be so sure that would be
the outcome though, as I’m pretty much sure that Boris and Co. are well aware.You’re again making out that the majority of Scots want another referendum, BigG. That’s far from conclusive.
Can you answer my earlier question? Is it the same rule for the other side or is it one rule for one and one for the other? ie What will happen if – in an independent Scotland – whenever just under 50% vote for Unionist parties? Is there going to be yet another referendum for returning to the union? And another, and another?
Has Nicola Sturgeon agreed in what circumstances a referendum would be granted to return to the UK?
If Scotland has a second referendum in seven years just because under 50% of the Scottish election voted for independence parties. Scotland will be in a spiral of referendum after referendum after referendum after referendum after referendum etc etc etc.
Business would not know where it stood, jobs would go and Scotland would be on the decline. Not because of Scotland being independent but because referendums (particularly never ending referendums) are pretty much universally acknowledged as bad for business.
Value Is EverythingPlease don’t keep on about an empire, befair, there is happily no empire – as you well know… And when there was one it was a British Empire – just as much Scottish as English. Am sure you are aware, when Protestants came to Northern Ireland in the Ulster Plantation a large number (perhaps even the majority) actually came from Scotland. Your constant empire jibes betrays more about your Nationalist Irish beliefs than anything to do with Scotland.
Thanks.
Value Is EverythingOver 10 million people voted Labour last time. They can’t all be kids and overgrown students. This whole ‘I’m older and therefore wiser’ thing just comes across as patronising to be honest. In my experience the majority of students don’t really give a flying foxtrot about politics anyway, at least not openly. I certainly didn’t (although I did and do always vote). I hardly recall the subject coming up during my three years. I think it’s more a vocal hardcore that you see and hear about.
Anyway we digress. On Scotland, I think the Tories are quietly pretty rattled. Johnson didn’t even bother going there before the recent elections because he knows damn well that every time he opens his trap regarding Scotland it helps the independence cause.
Ok Ginge, and this is just my opinion based on what I hear and feel about Scotland.
There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell that this will switch from one side to the
other every few years because the people of Scotland just wouldn’t stand for it. Can
I guarantee it doesnt happen, no, but I don’t think it would. You also keep mentioning
“what if” when the other side equally have just below the 50%. That’s not true, there
are almost as many polls puting Scotland ahead 16-18 this year, but in any case I’m
always wary about polls and who sets the rules, areas etc for them.Be fair Ginge, what party seeking to move for Independance is going to put up the
reasons and circumstances for the return to the Uk before the actually gain Independance.
No party alive would do that. You say Scotland would be in “a spiral of referendum after
referendum after referendum after referendum etc etc etc” Are you asking this question
because you know that no matter what I say I can’t give any guarantees. I can give an
opinion, which is that that just wouldn’t happen. Scotland is very pro movement in and
out of Scotland, and welcomes people from other countries. I really don’t think people
get it. Scotland has a completely different outlook to Europe than England. When would
this happen in England. Two days ago in Pollokshields in Glasgow, the home office swooped
on two immigrants and detained them in a flat. Before they could remove them 200 neighbours
gathered out in the street, not other immigrants, just people who live there and knew the
two men. They surrounded the van and lay under it. The police were called and and a stand
off of some hours went on before the Home Office returned the two men to their flat and left.
Now I’m not about to get into an arguement about the rights or wrongs in their status for
detention, I’m mentioning it to show the strength of feeling here from Scots for refugees
and those seeking to come to Scotland. This incidently had come from down south. I will say
though that Scotland’s justice minister is asking Priti Patel for an explanation. Nicola
Sturgeon commented that she was “making urgent enquiries and stood ready to offer any necessary
assistance to those detained”.Like I said, with regards to this subject (immigration) the Scots and the English are poles
apart. You are raising different subjects than the ones I raised to Paul, but I’ve tried to
answer them honestly. Nobody knows the answers to some of these questions, so trying to pin
someone down to answering with certainty isn’t reasonable. Giving opinion is all we can do
and from a Scottish perspective, as I’ve mentioned before, I think there is a great deal more
support for independance than the polls show. Can I prove this? no I can’t, but I think within
a reasonable time the question will be asked and then we’ll know.Classic response Ginger; always accuse others of that of which you yourself are guilty. English nationalism has led to the disaster of Brexit.
I am a citizen of the world, as for our childrens’ sake we need global approach to confront the many existential issues they will face.Ginge I’ve never been called woke before but I will take that as a complement. Big G what happened on the southside of Glasgow was a beautiful thing and it’s sh1t like that makes my country what it is. Ginge says there is no empire anymore, well give us a few years and there will be union either hopefully.
I’d have thought that was obvious to be fair, you only have to say those words the other way around:
ie What Unionist Party would agree to a second referendum in seven years on Independence unless it knows that the Unionist cause will be treated exactly the same as the Independence cause if the boot was on the other foot? No party alive would agree to not being treated the same.
Why is it so hard for those for Independence to say they’d give the same thing to the Unionist side that they themselves are asking for? Surely that’s only fair? Am just asking for your opinion, not a guarantee. But Sturgeon / the SNP must give a guarantee if she wants that second referendum!
May be if Scottish Unionists knew they’d be treated exactly the same and there’d be a possible way back, then they / everyone would agree to a second referendum.
Value Is Everything
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